Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:53109)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhD0hbj0BBoELuNWmQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RBtj3-00058q-6z; Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:35:30 -0700
Received: by pzk32 with SMTP id 32sf2581747pzk.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references
         :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key
         :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe;
        bh=2b8xCusqiQzllPemSETaTyI8P3zLs63EP6KOM5P8utA=;
        b=hMX0F+XMobjQenPc+nSuZz47QqrNweMWK9RK/pHT7R8ORt2HM6lKgOX1KtglUPKdb9
         Y7voQoUow5aMCatOkLjsKyhBiSjDAZvSOMt8AKonx+BhW8BLIuhsuNDJVS0ujALmeD74
         kPbHcub7ck0Ukgl3BARnlTe63k9KK1G9r+k50=
Received: by 10.68.10.129 with SMTP id i1mr645405pbb.0.1317929716471;
        Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.33.200 with SMTP id t8ls5628346pbi.4.gmail; Thu, 06 Oct
 2011 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.50.133 with SMTP id c5mr5625977pbo.2.1317929715949;
        Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.50.133 with SMTP id c5mr5625974pbo.2.1317929715937;
        Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v10si7699479pbi.0.2011.10.06.12.35.15
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19;
Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4])
	by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p96JZFBF021390
	for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 6 Oct 2011 19:35:15 GMT
Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75)
	(envelope-from <mbays@sdf.org>)
	id 1RBtit-0002xM-0s
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:35:15 -0400
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:35:14 -0400
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
Message-ID: <20111006193514.GC8826@gonzales>
References: <20110914041335.GO28088@gonzales>
 <55EFAEEE-10A9-4002-951E-7BD949DC29F7@yahoo.com>
 <20110914232007.GC6492@gonzales>
 <1316055853.22283.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <20110916000632.GD7274@gonzales>
 <E5F310CB-A415-43EE-BE16-634C7F651DE7@yahoo.com>
 <CAKOEKkSZppVHdtXhAZax72guOUG-g=ytjkYvtqoOeT4LGb4y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1317917098.8073.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <CAKOEKkTOdX_kc0oojPXBRwsWL-sxTKAnp_HG2rS_kSf7Td68=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1317924653.89892.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oTHb8nViIGeoXxdp"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <1317924653.89892.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc
X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6
X-cunselcu'a-valsi: cnemu
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /


--oTHb8nViIGeoXxdp
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

* Thursday, 2011-10-06 at 11:10 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>:

> Well, I am not sure just what the all the complications that MB and
> xorxes have stirred up are, but, so far as I can follow it, the
> position seems to be that {zo'e} stands for something I have in mind
> (or would have, if I thought about it).  It is a constant (a different
> one at each occurrence -- an ongoing problem in Lojban), not
> a variable and not under any quantifier.  Then {lo broda} is that with
> the additional information that the something is in some way, broda.
> So, it can refer to anything from a single broda to all brodas, past,
> present, future, and possible but not actualized.  This referent can
> then be said to have a further property in a variety of ways, mainly
> to be grokked from context, since the ways to specify them are not ywr
> well-established.  My understanding is that MB disagrees with this
> specification of {zo'e} and xorxes with the extrapolation to the
> referent, but juast why is hard to see.

Because it doesn't seem to explain the behaviour of {zo'e} with respect
to negation and quantifiers - at least if we accept that an unfilled
place is implicitly filled with a {zo'e}, and if we don't use kinds.

To dig out the old example, in
A: xu do pu klama lo zarci
B: mi na klama
, and assuming that there's only one market in question, B probably
intends to refer to that market by the implicit {zo'e} in {klama}'s x2.
But B is unlikely to mean only to mean that for some specific route,
B didn't go to the market by that route. B probably means that B didn't
go to the market via *any* route, or means of transport.

Your explanation of {zo'e} seems not to deal with that.

Martin

--oTHb8nViIGeoXxdp
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk6OAvIACgkQULC7OLX7LNYVvgCfdpjxzMPPPhsWY4DKQBAaKONL
dt4An033BFeFnBAaBBiLFm0wu2dOj+MT
=kn0/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--oTHb8nViIGeoXxdp--