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<1317917098.8073.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1317924653.89892.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111006193514.GC8826@gonzales> <3166A594-07BE-4D24-AA0F-C56D07C223A5@yahoo.com> <20111007003217.GD8826@gonzales> In-Reply-To: <20111007003217.GD8826@gonzales> X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_10273851_AHfHjkQAAP70To5ImAXfHwnWUfE Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 19:56:09 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.53.218 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Lying on abed of pain, I have been thinking about this a bit and want to re= vise my position somewhat. =20 About {zi'o}, there are two possible ways of reading, say, {zi'o klama}. On= e as a relation among places, paths and modes of transportation that hold o= f a quartet of such just in case some traveler take the path from the secon= d place to the first along the path using the transportation mode. The seco= nd is much the same except that the traveller does not enter in, we just ha= ve a relation among the quartets with no further indication of why they are= in that relation. The second view, while formally possible, is surely not= what is intended; why would we use {klama} if the things related were neve= r part of a trip? But, as a result, {zi'o} becomes equivalent to your frie= nd, the short-scope particular quantifier. So, I drop that suggestion. Which brings us back to {zo'e} and unfilled pl= aces. I take it as a given that {zo'e} is a constant ( at each use -- not = an ideal situation)and never a variable. The appearance that it is sometimes a variable comes from the fact that unfille= d places clearly are variables sometimes, combined with the claim that ever= y unfilled space is a covert occurrence of {zo'e}. This last now seems to = me to just be flat wrong, as the examples bandied about here seem clearly t= o prove. On the other hand, some unfilled spaces are clearly covert {zo'e} = or some constant, at least. The constant seems to be subsumable under the = "thing I have in mind" reading, whether obvious anaphora, obvious deixis, o= r less obvious personal whim (cf. the definitions of descriptors). This le= aves a totally unacceptable situation, at least for a logical language, who= se transformations are supposed to be on the surface: an unfilled space is = four ways ambiguous. It seems the only logically sensible out is to allow = unfilled spaces only for variables (the general case) and require something= more specific for the rest,preferably the appropriate pronouns in those ca= se and {zo'e} on the last, though I suppose that in most cases {zo'e} could= do for all three. So, back to the question case: the appropriate negative responses to the qu= estion { xu do klama le zarci} are {na}(or should that be{naku}?), {na go'i= }, {mi na klama zy} ( or some more official pronoun), and the basic {mi na = klama le zarci}, with {mi na klama zo'e} as a marginal possibility. Sent from my=20 On Oct 6, 2011, at 20:32, Martin Bays wrote: > * Thursday, 2011-10-06 at 17:21 -0400 - John E. Clifford : >=20 >> Which is why I added "or would have I intended if he had thought of >> it". So you are saying he might have intended a variable. >=20 > Ah, I was reading your "something" in "something I have in mind (or > would have, if I thought about it)" as being an ordinary something (or > somethings, presumably), i.e. just some element (possibly plural) of thee= .=20 > universe. >=20 > Having it be a variable is roughly right, yes. This can't be dealt with > at a textual level - simply substituting {da xi ci ze} for {zo'e} - > because {zo'e ro da broda} should be the same as {ro da zo'u zo'e da > broda}. Hence the "close-scoping (plural) existential with glorked > domain" suggestion made in this thread. >=20 > Do you still think that suggestion is wrong/bad in some way? >=20 >> I personally think it is {zi'o}, but that probably has problems >> too--though I can't think of one. >=20 > My main problem with that is just the icky ambiguity it would introduce. > In principle, {zi'o klama} is an entirely new 4-place predicate, whose > semantics are related to those of {klama} but not in any very > predictable way. So if an omitted place can be {zi'o}, understanding the > possible meanings of any expression would, in principle, involve > understanding many such zi'o-derived selbri. >=20 > Martin >=20 >> On Oct 6, 2011, at 15:35, Martin Bays wrote: >>=20 >>> * Thursday, 2011-10-06 at 11:10 -0700 - John E Clifford : >>>> Well, I am not sure just what the all the complications that MB and >>>> xorxes have stirred up are, but, so far as I can follow it, the >>>> position seems to be that {zo'e} stands for something I have in mind >>>> (or would have, if I thought about it). It is a constant (a different >>>> one at each occurrence -- an ongoing problem in Lojban), not >>>> a variable and not under any quantifier. Then {lo broda} is that with >>>> the additional information that the something is in some way, broda. >>>> So, it can refer to anything from a single broda to all brodas, past, >>>> present, future, and possible but not actualized. This referent can >>>> then be said to have a further property in a variety of ways, mainly >>>> to be grokked from context, since the ways to specify them are not ywr >>>> well-established. My understanding is that MB disagrees with this >>>> specification of {zo'e} and xorxes with the extrapolation to the >>>> referent, but juast why is hard to see. >>>=20 >>> Because it doesn't seem to explain the behaviour of {zo'e} with respect >>> to negation and quantifiers - at least if we accept that an unfilled >>> place is implicitly filled with a {zo'e}, and if we don't use kinds. >>>=20 >>> To dig out the old example, in >>> A: xu do pu klama lo zarci >>> B: mi na klama >>> , and assuming that there's only one market in question, B probably >>> intends to refer to that market by the implicit {zo'e} in {klama}'s x2. >>> But B is unlikely to mean only to mean that for some specific route, >>> B didn't go to the market by that route. B probably means that B didn't >>> go to the market via *any* route, or means of transport. >>>=20 >>> Your explanation of {zo'e} seems not to deal with that. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.