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<1317917098.8073.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1317924653.89892.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111006193514.GC8826@gonzales> <3166A594-07BE-4D24-AA0F-C56D07C223A5@yahoo.com> <20111007003217.GD8826@gonzales> <4E91FF55.6070801@gmail.com> <53F868DD-3580-4B13-AAB1-AC2933FD0761@yahoo.com> <4E9222C7.3010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1318203049.21048.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 16:30:49 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4E9222C7.3010500@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.205 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / But the problem is that {zi'o}ing off gaps may not be the effect one wants, even if one usually doesn't care what goes in the gap. And, if we are tempted toadd that kind of wild card into an already messy situation, where gaps can mean any of several things already, we probably should resist the urge. And fix up the whole system (possibly including going back to remove all the rarely used places). ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, October 9, 2011 5:40:07 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable John E. Clifford, On 09/10/2011 23:09: > Clearly having {zi'o} as a value for {zo'e} would > just make a bad situation even worse, Yes, as I said. > as would {zi'o} as a value for an unfilled space. No -- this is clearly not clearly so, since you are replying to a message in which I say zi'o for unfilled place would be a good thing. It's a good thing in the current circumstances, which are circumstances in which there are quite a lot of places that one would want to zi'o off most of the time, and no strong convention of using overt zi'o when the speaker's intention is such that zi'o is appropriate and zo'e isn't. I think speakers generally do mean "zo'e or zi'o" when a place is left unfilled. If more comprehensive reforms were possible, it would be better to just abolish every gismu place that one might reasonably often want to zi'o. Then the virtues of having covert zi'o in empty places would evaporate. --And. > On Oct 9, 2011, at 16:08, And Rosta wrote: >> IMO the best rule would be for empty places to be fillable by zi'o or by zo'e, >>but not for zi'o to be a possible value of zo'e. Disambiguation could be >>effected by using an overt zi'o or zo'e. Allowing zi'o as a value of zo'e would >>permit undisambiguable ambiguity -- of course a very bad thing. The advantage of >>letting empty places be fillable by covert zi'o is that it would overcome the >>problem of superfluous gismu places that usage tends to forget about. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.