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Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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 Content preview:  Well, aside from doubting anything at all that involves {zo'e},
    you are forgetting ivity and modality here. I don't know what modality is
    intended, but if generality, then, even if the first sentence were true,
   the last is not. And the intermediate ones are hard to handle. But assuming
    simple factuality, and conjunctive predication and a continuous sense of
   {zo'e} (which hard to guarantee, of course, given some of its meanings). You
    start with a bunch of red roses and you end with the same, though some of
    the pragmatics will have changed a bit. But then, I think that if a definition
    of {lo} in terms of {zo'e} works at all (which I doubt), it has to use {poi}
    rather than {noi}. And then the transformation are less plausible. [...] 
 
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Well, aside from doubting anything at all that involves {zo'e}, you are 
forgetting ivity and modality here.  I don't know what modality is intended, but 
if generality, then, even if the first sentence were true, the last is not. And 
the intermediate ones are hard to handle.  But assuming simple factuality, and 
conjunctive predication and a continuous sense of {zo'e} (which hard to 
guarantee, of course, given some of its meanings).  You start with a bunch of 
red roses and you end with the same, though some of the pragmatics will have 
changed a bit. But then, I think that if a definition of {lo} in terms of {zo'e} 
works at all (which I doubt), it has to use {poi} rather than {noi}.  And then 
the transformation are less plausible.





________________________________
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 5:41:22 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural 
variable


What's wrong with that?  The rose is a red thing.  The red thing is a rose.  I 
don't see what the problem is
On Oct 16, 2011 6:23 PM, "Martin Bays" <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

* Saturday, 2011-10-15 at 19:22 -0400 - Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>:
>
>> So am I taking "{lo} -> {zo'e noi}" too literally?
>
>Actually, what do you make of this argument for not taking it too
>literally:
>
>{lo rozgu cu xunre}
>   == {zo'e noi rozgu cu xunre}
>   == {zo'e rozgu gi'e xunre}
>   == {zo'e xunre gi'e rozgu}
>   == {zo'e noi xunre cu rozgu}
>   == {lo xunre cu rozgu}
>
>Martin
>
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--0-1777070456-1318818129=:17549
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon=
t-size:12pt">Well, aside from doubting anything at all that involves {zo'e}=
, you are forgetting ivity and modality here.&nbsp; I don't know what modal=
ity is intended, but if generality, then, even if the first sentence were t=
rue, the last is not. And the intermediate ones are hard to handle.&nbsp; B=
ut assuming simple factuality, and conjunctive predication and a continuous=
 sense of {zo'e} (which hard to guarantee, of course, given some of its mea=
nings).&nbsp; You start with a bunch of red roses and you end with the same=
, though some of the pragmatics will have changed a bit. But then, I think =
that if a definition of {lo} in terms of {zo'e} works at all (which I doubt=
), it has to use {poi} rather than {noi}.&nbsp; And then the transformation=
 are less plausible.<br><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:times new
 roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><br><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font face=3D"Tah=
oma" size=3D"2"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">From:<=
/span></b> Luke Bergen &lt;lukeabergen@gmail.com&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com<br><b><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sun, October 16, 2011 5:41:22 PM<b=
r><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] {z=
o'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable<br></font><br>
<p>What's wrong with that?&nbsp; The rose is a red thing.&nbsp; The red thi=
ng is a rose.&nbsp; I don't see what the problem is</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 16, 2011 6:23 PM, "Martin Bays" &lt;<a re=
l=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:mbays@sdf.org">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;">
* Saturday, 2011-10-15 at 19:22 -0400 - Martin Bays &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow"=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:mbays@sd=
f.org">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt;:<br>
<br>
&gt; So am I taking "{lo} -&gt; {zo'e noi}" too literally?<br>
<br>
Actually, what do you make of this argument for not taking it too<br>
literally:<br>
<br>
{lo rozgu cu xunre}<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;=3D=3D {zo'e noi rozgu cu xunre}<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;=3D=3D {zo'e rozgu gi'e xunre}<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;=3D=3D {zo'e xunre gi'e rozgu}<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;=3D=3D {zo'e noi xunre cu rozgu}<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;=3D=3D {lo xunre cu rozgu}<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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</div></div>



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<p></p>

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