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Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:24:03 -0400
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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* Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 21:49 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.co=
m>:

> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > * Saturday, 2011-10-15 at 19:22 -0400 - Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>:
> >
> >> So am I taking "{lo} -> {zo'e noi}" too literally?
> >
> > Actually, what do you make of this argument for not taking it too
> > literally:
> >
> > {lo rozgu cu xunre}
> > =A0 =A0=3D=3D {zo'e noi rozgu cu xunre}
>=20
> Where the referent of "zo'e" is roses, yes.
>=20
> > =A0 =A0=3D=3D {zo'e rozgu gi'e xunre}
> > =A0 =A0=3D=3D {zo'e xunre gi'e rozgu}
> > =A0 =A0=3D=3D {zo'e noi xunre cu rozgu}
>=20
> So far so good.
>=20
> > =A0 =A0=3D=3D {lo xunre cu rozgu}
>=20
> But "zo'e noi xunre" could be changed to "lo xunre" only if the
> referent of "zo'e" was red things. We already know that the referent
> of zo'e in all the previous sentences was roses, so we can't transform
> "zo'e noi xunre" into "lo xunre".
>=20
> Alternatively: "zo'e" is not like "ko'a", something that gets a
> referent and keeps it more or less indefinitely. The referent of
> "zo'e" gets assigned by context, and the sentence in which it appears
> is very much part of its context. "lo rozgu" =3D=3D "zo'e noi rozgu" only
> in the context of defining "lo rozgu". With a different context,
> "zo'e" might get assigned a different referent and thus "zo'e noi
> rozgu" might no longer be replaceable by "lo rozgu".
>=20
> (All of which may amount to saying that "{lo} -> {zo'e noi}" should
> not be taken too literally, and "{zo'e noi} -> {lo}" is even less
> certain.)

OK.

I wonder then whether "{zo'e} =3D=3D {lo du}" mightn't be a more accurate
summation of the relation between {zo'e} and {lo}.

(assuming that everything, pluralities and kinds included, dus itself)

Martin

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