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[66.94.236.229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id k42si1882188ybk.2.2011.10.16.19.47.15; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.229 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.229; Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2011 02:47:15 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.103] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2011 02:47:15 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2011 02:47:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 63809.89025.bm@omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 51037 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Oct 2011 02:47:14 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: LYnIjssVM1ned3H4T6zYdd0EEmINnhzFN.sNkfcfoGgcVsg RB2cuvx7jxAC4zalrkNnWWgyzXVCz_Z4BlTZw_BmxzCUdAR3vvNEy.uAciLw aEStkk_nQkDAEC8EcmY6vKpgTgDVduFCh5TkMZJxOgUJhWiKAOFetASHwz57 m7gp8nTAtX4urZ1Igc8FuH6IU2gIfAj1.xwWIA8JfhaIuLIwVgvJik1i28g6 e3dB1DjllTEGLcDETxXc8JaWzRuXxTTZMFBvE_SPaoshLZLHlRbNWvvgru_I obGq_T7PlnuqMNo3RKOeG9V9SfQLg3AVt9_DcVwao9yzYTiFj8NTP0Qfqi4g 5PcCzaOKg5E7yzRGt3WzN_yGK8VEqE624hQbmgWHhriGxTRRnfljuH_1NvXB UhY7s8YJEyw_IEMj1WqYsewfaFL527xYlML7Xyu2CAW9nqaguzNO57k_oQjm A5fFEfrbJnJ2vrZdAKyujevWn03wVFPXBpXD.yjZIwwZL_IhepCtZAddm3g2 KS.yyXdKox9cuYJBiZaJzGEo- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:47:14 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681 References: <1318202744.44997.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111013043308.GD3367@gonzales> <4E981179.1030805@gmail.com> <4E9A3F33.5050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1318819634.22364.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / I'm not clear where these circumstances came from; the original is just abo= ut=20 money. To be sure, your giving me money is a circumstance, as is my buying= =20 drugs with it, but why go into that. The context leaper rule (verso existential with anaphora outside its scope = is a=20 recto universal with scope covering both cases) is nothing to do with logic= per=20 se but is about getting things into regimented form. And that, as Montague= =20 would say, is just a fact of the grammar of English, properly understood. = Does=20 it really work for Lojban? Donnow, let's work it out. since Lojban is=20 *supposed* to be regimented already, the problem shouldn't arise. But it s= eems=20 to, so either Lojban is not regimented (and so needs some work) or some for= ms=20 that we have been using are improper or don't mean what we think they do. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 7:31:56 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural= =20 variable On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 11:19 PM, And Rosta wrote: > > The commonest case where covert donkey sentences occur is with conditiona= ls: > "If you give me money, I'll spend it on drugs" =3D "Every possible > circumstance in which there is money that you give me is a circumstance i= n > which there is money that you give me and I spend on drugs". I don't thin= k > your solution works for that. Applying your solution gives (I think) "Eve= ry > circumstance is such that in it I spend all money that you give me", whic= h > has the wrong meaning. Crucially, the conditionals rely on restricted > quantification (over circumstances in which such and such is the case). Why does it have the wrong meaning? Is it still wrong if you use "any" instead of "all"? I think my solution would give: "For any money, if you give it to me, I'll spend it on drugs" or "I'll spend on drugs any money you give me". > So well done with the reformulation of the classic donkey sentence, but n= ow > turn your ingenuity to "Every possible circumstance in which there is mon= ey > that you give me is a circumstance in which there is money that you give = me > and I spend on drugs". I think the issue with donkey sentences is not so much reformulating them in terms of ordinary first order logic, which can be done by replacing the short scope existential by a wide scope universal. The problematic issue is explaining what's going on, since this conversion is not licensed by any rules of logic. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.