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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:59:07 -0400
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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* Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 19:28 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com=
>:

> But that involves different modalities, which may put different constrain=
ts on=20
> {zo'e} among other things (something on the "kind" end of the range, say).

But for xorxes, no modality is involved (at the first analysis). {lo
rozgu cu ca ca'a bu'u xunre} means "roses are red". The kind 'roses' and
its properties do not vary (much?) with time or possible world.

This statement may then resolve to something like "typical roses are
typically red", involving quantification of instances and worlds, but
that's a second step - which, moreover, xorxes and & might consider
none of lojban's business.

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 6:52:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plur=
al=20
> variable
>=20
> * Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 18:41 -0400 - Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>:
>=20
> > On Oct 16, 2011 6:23 PM, "Martin Bays" <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > > * Saturday, 2011-10-15 at 19:22 -0400 - Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>:
> > > > So am I taking "{lo} -> {zo'e noi}" too literally?
> > >
> > > Actually, what do you make of this argument for not taking it too
> > > literally:
> > >
> > > {lo rozgu cu xunre}
> > >    =3D=3D {zo'e noi rozgu cu xunre}
> > >    =3D=3D {zo'e rozgu gi'e xunre}
> > >    =3D=3D {zo'e xunre gi'e rozgu}
> > >    =3D=3D {zo'e noi xunre cu rozgu}
> > >    =3D=3D {lo xunre cu rozgu}
> >
> > What's wrong with that?  The rose is a red thing.  The red thing is a r=
ose.
> > I don't see what the problem is
>=20
> Those two sentences aren't generally considered equivalent in english.
>=20
> Moreover, xorxes would give "roses are red" and "red things are roses"
> as possible translations. Those are even more clearly non-equivalent.
>=20
> Martin
>=20
> --=20
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