Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:49859)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCQ_vD0BBoEY7qa4g@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RFoPi-0004GS-1D; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:45 -0700
Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf3230598pzk.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references
         :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key
         :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe;
        bh=a/1CdTUAjzJBbpPVonqXolbE2XFyppaFTVle4cB1Gnw=;
        b=iWU4pvHLg5iP57QJryPFYLnLP1IX8TiTXk3SP8xljaZudSKJNQiBiOe4gGWiP7K0zl
         HvMqDLE4/QrBINBal4hqMMd7RkeHjvJEeKTxt/N2qXu5H4gJede0flD7RG2vTviBvWI6
         01QuUUJcJm4p3UkFZZ18ljVLE66zf8l8J2exE=
Received: by 10.68.34.68 with SMTP id x4mr4197893pbi.9.1318862608882;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.33.200 with SMTP id t8ls18963385pbi.4.gmail; Mon, 17 Oct
 2011 07:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.8.229 with SMTP id u5mr25641161pba.0.1318862608152;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.8.229 with SMTP id u5mr25641160pba.0.1318862608140;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l3si15042453pbd.0.2011.10.17.07.43.28
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19;
Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4])
	by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9HEhRRY009560
	for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:43:27 GMT
Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75)
	(envelope-from <mbays@sdf.org>)
	id 1RFoPW-0002pn-T9
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:43:26 -0400
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:43:26 -0400
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
Message-ID: <20111017144326.GK21114@gonzales>
References: <20111014225934.GC3111@gonzales>
 <4E98D899.7080608@gmail.com>
 <20111015200404.GB3090@gonzales>
 <CAO7tK2d212cYedWPHvVjz2BsDhrfst9GOB+00QSRHGMMaOHQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111015232957.GH3779@gonzales>
 <CAO7tK2fA-k46_-YAZyisTqcYGAKRXXK1W_6bHzicypBe6drraw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111017015603.GF21114@gonzales>
 <1318820956.53263.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <20111017035148.GA25291@gonzales>
 <1318861845.83221.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lildS9pRFgpM/xzO"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <1318861845.83221.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc
X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6
X-cunselcu'a-valsi: linsi
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /


--lildS9pRFgpM/xzO
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

* Monday, 2011-10-17 at 07:30 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com=
>:

> But "I like lions" has nothing to do with lionness, just lions.

What does it have to do with any lions? You can like lions without
liking (even potentially) any lions.

> As for getting rid of disjunctive predication,  if you allow plural
> reference, you are stuck with all the consequences (you are stuck with
> them even if you use sets to cover up the problem in singular
> reference).

Why would plural reference lead you to using disjunctive predication?

> It seems to me ythat the problems arise when you get away from basics
> and try messing around with things like kinds or nesses (we have both,
> of course, but they come in overtly, not sub rosa).
>=20
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 10:51:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plur=
al=20
> variable
>=20
> * Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 20:09 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.c=
om>:
>=20
> > Ahah! "I ate disjunctively of something you like generally" or some suc=
h.
>=20
> Something along those lines, yes.
>=20
> The context here is that we're trying to see what happens if we throw
> kinds out of the window (and also disjunctive predication, in whatever
> sense it was there), and try to make do with normal things - including
> properties, which I hope can replace pure-kind predications of the "I
> like lions" kind (think of it as "I like lionness").=20
>=20
> Martin
>=20
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> > Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 8:56:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified pl=
ural=20
> > variable
> >=20
> > * Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 20:49 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai=
l.com>:
> > > (2) ca lo prulamnicte mi citka su'o da poi do nelci ke'a
> > > "Last night I ate something you like."
> > >=20
> > > You want to accept (1) but reject (2), even though to me they have the
> > > exact same logical structure.

--lildS9pRFgpM/xzO
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk6cPw4ACgkQULC7OLX7LNb80QCfSUQeJm3C0hAyzUOgBKtfSEM6
bAcAn3rCYeuR5G5kt3TE6i76lv5fIZC2
=FRGc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--lildS9pRFgpM/xzO--