Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]:44774)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCOpvH0BBoEur41rw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RFpkG-0004v4-6t; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:09:05 -0700
Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16sf2430176vws.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to
         :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=00GUBCP6gIEjgjdCC5YAbwj4wjnFYZDBTnQ8ORzVqhQ=;
        b=5gntGzFVDZGoNL9+8lbChjChy4tH1nJQHyRvzYOw7mWF5+NzAJe/X0kCYbZV/eqdwZ
         /WasYGT9yLJAqtHL9R+BJZL5A0id6sF1zjVZzGEtnDxsZUlaavhnhuw27ujL+qDlQ+QH
         XJlIVTHrgcElLSpYe/Qz1j+AeXjP+E9C9Dp6Q=
Received: by 10.220.147.201 with SMTP id m9mr1488076vcv.43.1318867726896;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.149.17 with SMTP id r17ls1553401vcv.0.gmail; Mon, 17 Oct
 2011 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.119.201 with SMTP id n49mr28473204yhh.0.1318867726180;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.119.201 with SMTP id n49mr28473202yhh.0.1318867726168;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nm28.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm28.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com. [66.94.237.93])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id n38si3608850ybb.0.2011.10.17.09.08.46;
        Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.93 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.93;
Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2011 16:08:45 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.125] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2011 16:08:45 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2011 16:08:45 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 884370.14554.bm@omp1030.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 88773 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Oct 2011 16:08:45 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: L.DQT.wVM1kwqsd9dmgVQ9l4we7rDHsPmpyrLKuuettAGik
 01b60rwVtnhpECr4nNbjmPM45HpedIQVkc0ARcLJCXxiLd3J4Dzil4oIqFT2
 YqNW1hAnFAPMd8GspryTSLe2_cjPF1014LDL0c4m9vO9cIz5KKw_wdS1NQHK
 jOeDaeFPcMQ6ixtL0otxpmrF8.IyvxNdXHzXWRzgGPy87A0V68FwDWda8yFE
 Drho.6iJqiOpWZ6dGiiBFOAYkaFje_e_1RRwMdfr4BCo4vVvomgKWo42_XA7
 gY0kJVe6JaYI5AcDAfomsKv2CNZ7gBjm4TWN5SQJa27BDPGGRRMuAFIPu9pP
 S9211aJHTHG0ly5U5VxO0lyibmFmsSGdROpLO7axF3aklEjAcU0daoyMJ43L
 oB2xBMucu2xyqmFfgke6tQzrCgZWzZX0_dr.IHT0OtqmQTP0duNpfeUXpVBU
 qWSI-
Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:45 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681
References: <20111014225934.GC3111@gonzales> <4E98D899.7080608@gmail.com> <20111015200404.GB3090@gonzales> <CAO7tK2d212cYedWPHvVjz2BsDhrfst9GOB+00QSRHGMMaOHQGg@mail.gmail.com> <20111015232957.GH3779@gonzales> <CAO7tK2fA-k46_-YAZyisTqcYGAKRXXK1W_6bHzicypBe6drraw@mail.gmail.com> <20111017015603.GF21114@gonzales> <1318820956.53263.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111017035148.GA25291@gonzales> <1318861845.83221.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111017144326.GK21114@gonzales>
Message-ID: <1318867725.87796.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <20111017144326.GK21114@gonzales>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.93
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

Once you have a plurality, you can slice and dice any which way.
Well, let's see.  I can like unicorns, even if there are not any (although,=
 in=20
Lojban, if I say that in a natural way, I seem to guarantee that there are =
some,=20
albeit nonexistent), so maybe you are right and this is about properties.  =
I=20
would be inclined, however, to think it was rather a more general intension=
al=20
notion, which might amount to a property, but maybe also an event, dependin=
g on=20
what one likes about them -- even a sensation.  So, I would probably write =
{mi=20
nelci tu'a lo cinfo} (I am away from my tables right now, so I may have the=
=20
cmavo wrong, but it is around there somewhere.


----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 17, 2011 9:43:26 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural=
=20
variable

* Monday, 2011-10-17 at 07:30 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com=
>:

> But "I like lions" has nothing to do with lionness, just lions.

What does it have to do with any lions? You can like lions without
liking (even potentially) any lions.

> As for getting rid of disjunctive predication,  if you allow plural
> reference, you are stuck with all the consequences (you are stuck with
> them even if you use sets to cover up the problem in singular
> reference).

Why would plural reference lead you to using disjunctive predication?

> It seems to me ythat the problems arise when you get away from basics
> and try messing around with things like kinds or nesses (we have both,
> of course, but they come in overtly, not sub rosa).
>=20
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 10:51:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plur=
al=20
> variable
>=20
> * Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 20:09 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.c=
om>:
>=20
> > Ahah! "I ate disjunctively of something you like generally" or some suc=
h.
>=20
> Something along those lines, yes.
>=20
> The context here is that we're trying to see what happens if we throw
> kinds out of the window (and also disjunctive predication, in whatever
> sense it was there), and try to make do with normal things - including
> properties, which I hope can replace pure-kind predications of the "I
> like lions" kind (think of it as "I like lionness").=20
>=20
> Martin
>=20
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> > Sent: Sun, October 16, 2011 8:56:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified pl=
ural=20
> > variable
> >=20
> > * Sunday, 2011-10-16 at 20:49 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai=
l.com>:
> > > (2) ca lo prulamnicte mi citka su'o da poi do nelci ke'a
> > > "Last night I ate something you like."
> > >=20
> > > You want to accept (1) but reject (2), even though to me they have th=
e
> > > exact same logical structure.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.