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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:10:54 +0100
Message-ID: <CACf3dPnSd8_wCrjetQ8eEYz3JisnnYqwptMGWc0T2HhpE_DxAg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
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Can you give one or two salient examples, distributed over thousands of
years, of rejections of reducing conditionals to quantification over
circumstances, and can you cite some of the grounds for the rejection?

It does seem to me that the repetition is unavoidable by mere reformulation=
,
tho I do not discount the ingenuity of xorxes in finding a way. But the
essential challenge of a logical language is to give logical forms that are
repetitious or complicated a concise surface form.

The only direct connection to donkey sentences is that "most farmers that
own a donkey beat it" appears to require repetition in the underlying
logical form.

On 18 Oct 2011 03:54, "John E Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

It seems that, if you insist on going over to occurrences, you are going to
get
stuck with repetitions.  I don't know any particular logical reason to drop
conditionals in favor of occurrences (and several thousand years of people
rejecting that idea against it).  In any case, what does this have to do
with
Lojban, which, by definition, has no grammatical donkey sentences, since
these
are just the sort of  things that logical languages weed out.  Apparent
cases
are either ungrammatical or misinterpreted (assuming the claims about Lojba=
n
are
true).




----- Original Message ----
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, October 17, 2011 6:54:58 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially qua...

Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 17/10/2011 02:55:
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:11 PM, And Rosta<and.rosta@gmail.c...

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"lojban" group.
To po...

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<p>Can you give one or two salient examples, distributed over thousands of =
years, of rejections of reducing conditionals to quantification over circum=
stances, and can you cite some of the grounds for the rejection?</p>
<p>It does seem to me that the repetition is unavoidable by mere reformulat=
ion, tho I do not discount the ingenuity of xorxes in finding a way. But th=
e essential challenge of a logical language is to give logical forms that a=
re repetitious or complicated a concise surface form.</p>

<p>The only direct connection to donkey sentences is that &quot;most farmer=
s that own a donkey beat it&quot; appears to require repetition in the unde=
rlying logical form.</p>
<p><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 18 Oct 2011 03:54, &quot;John E Clifford&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br><br>It seems that, if you insist on going over to occurrences, =
you are going to get<br>

stuck with repetitions. =A0I don&#39;t know any particular logical reason t=
o drop<br>
conditionals in favor of occurrences (and several thousand years of people<=
br>
rejecting that idea against it). =A0In any case, what does this have to do =
with<br>
Lojban, which, by definition, has no grammatical donkey sentences, since th=
ese<br>
are just the sort of =A0things that logical languages weed out. =A0Apparent=
 cases<br>
are either ungrammatical or misinterpreted (assuming the claims about Lojba=
n are<br>
true).<br>
<p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br><br>----- Original Message ----<br>From:=
 And Rosta &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com">and.rosta@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroup=
s.com</a></font></p>
<p><font color=3D"#500050">Sent: Mon, October 17, 2011 6:54:58 PM<br>Subjec=
t: Re: [lojban] {zo&#39;e} as close-scope existentially qua...</font></p><p=
><font color=3D"#500050">Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 17/10/2011 02:55:<br>&gt; On =
Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:11 PM, And Rosta&lt;and.rosta@gmail.c...</font></p>
<p><font color=3D"#500050">-- <br>You received this message because you are=
 subscribed to the Google Groups <br>&quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>To po...<=
/font></p></blockquote></p>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



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