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Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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Now I am mor con used than before.  Why is there only one bunch off people =
living in glass houses and why must they all exist at one time / in one wor=
ld, and why can't they?  I am unclear what restrictions you are placing on =
worlds an domains.  I am also unclear as to what you think the logical form=
 of "People who live in glass houses should install proper insulation" is.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 19, 2011, at 22:41, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> * Wednesday, 2011-10-19 at 19:11 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yaho=
o.com>:
>=20
>> U\I'm not going to worry about {loi} etc. until I am sutre about {lo} an=
d then=20
>> see what is lefyt over that needs dealing with. {lo cipnrdodo) refers
>> to all the dodos there ever were (suppose that is right for this
>> context), all of which are thus in the domain of discourse and also in
>> the extension of {cipnrdodo}.  What problem are you having; I just
>> don't see it?
>=20
> Hmm. So you'd want every dodo which ever lived to now cipnrdodo - even
> if it doesn't zasti, nevermind jmive?
>=20
> That might work for some cases, but what if we want to say "people in
> glass houses should install proper insulation"? Even if the people in
> question (who mostly don't zasti in this possible world, nevermind now)
> were to ca ca'a prenu, they surely couldn't ca ca'a nenri su'o blaci
> zdani; nor is there any other world in which they all do.
>=20
> So the bunch of them doesn't satisfy {prenu gi'e nenri su'o blaci
> zdani} - since there's only one bunch, we would need that the bunch
> satisfies this in some given world. It doesn't.
>=20
> But each atom (person, in this case) in the bunch does satisfy {prenu
> gi'e nenri su'o blaci zdani}. So for {lo prenu poi nenri su'o blaci
> zdani} to get the bunch, we'd need the quantifier over worlds to go
> inside a quantifier over the bunch. The gadri seems the right place
> to specify this.
>=20
> Martin
>=20
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Wed, October 19, 2011 1:44:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plu=
ral=20
>> variable
>>=20
>> * Tuesday, 2011-10-18 at 01:44 -0400 - Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>:
>>=20
>>> * Tuesday, 2011-10-18 at 00:47 -0400 - Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>:
>>>=20
>>>> * Monday, 2011-10-17 at 19:46 -0700 - John E Clifford=20
>> <kali9putra@yahoo.com>:
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
>>>>>> Maybe I finally understand what you mean with your "kinds =3D maxima=
l
>>>>>> bunches" idea. Let's see.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I've been implicitly assuming that in {lo broda}, the tense inside t=
he
>>>>>> description is by default copied from outside it. So {mi ca ca'a nel=
ci
>>>>>> lo pavyseljirna} =3D=3D {mi ca ca'a nelci lo ca ca'a pavyseljirna}, =
which is
>>>>>> false if there are no unicorns.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I suppose the tense (if there is one) is as contextual as everything =
else=20
>>> about=20
>>>=20
>>>>> descriptions.  The same as the bridi surely is a good guess in genera=
l, but=20
>>> may=20
>>>=20
>>>>> be obviously wrong in other circumstances.  For example, in generalit=
ies,=20
>>> the=20
>>>=20
>>>>> tense (if that is the right notion) is probably past, present, future=
 and=20
>>>>> possible.
>>>>=20
>>>> Right, so I think I do understand you.
>>>>=20
>>>> Does this work?
>>>=20
>>> But there's something of a problem: if the plural referent of {lo broda=
}
>>> is meant to satisfy broda, what tense can give us e.g. all dodos ever?
>>> The plural referent of {lo pu cipnrdodo} must satisfy {pu cipnrdodo},
>>> i.e. must have satisfied {cipnrdodo} at some point in the past. But tha=
t
>>> means we're picking up some dodos all of which existed at the same time=
.
>>>=20
>>> So it seems we'd have to have the rule be that {ro lo broda cu broda},
>>> rather than {lo broda cu broda}, for this to work.
>>=20
>> ...and then it might make sense to have {loi broda} be the same as {lo},
>> except that the plural referent is required to broda (rather than the
>> atoms below it brodaing). So while {lo pu cipnrdodo} could get the bunch
>> (aka plurality) of all dodos ever, {loi pu cipnrdodo} would have to get
>> a bunch all of which cipnrdodod at the same past time (which might imply
>> that they were all alive at the same time, or if dead at least not too
>> far decomposed...).
>>=20
>> So this contains some of the essence of the historical meaning of {loi},
>> and is usefully distinct from (the understanding under discussion of)
>> {lo}.
>>=20
>> Martin
>>=20
>> --=20
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