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[98.139.52.68]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id cn4si5338519vdb.3.2011.10.21.14.05.30; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.52.68 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.52.68; Received: from [98.139.52.194] by nm5.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Oct 2011 21:05:30 -0000 Received: from [98.139.52.180] by tm7.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Oct 2011 21:05:30 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1063.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Oct 2011 21:05:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 305993.87838.bm@omp1063.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 96823 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2011 21:05:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: KsmuPTMVM1njxCkoQ1wHky5YzdskOroNBqsXPjsVa8Jq_nQ HEpE9Aal4WdG5g5hf0EW2a1_2sNSz2A3WSq6EP1_5t_IorzZS5n7hXKj4nwp Qej38oELc9oenGTpHi9dYy.uLdWrmK27yvCMNhojTAyCCUvRT78PCO77IFj7 KYCs_8I__WiPf.7C3kbUlobqF5DBi1mRDJJuVQasYbImx5nd9xMzOH3ZpsGF i3obhAMGQyn7EwfXdFrqml4YwBcjZ0OK9SVvZXcLnf0Or5ksL0ij6SLuFLN2 yov3wd.jx6pHDxT6mcvXCb8c2aPua47Z7IzPLI_MIDupENQoRjC3Kn5Ux3XY vXfINvjFuxfwaLNRJGaolo4okRUmF_xVEi14jwo8Tmct9DP1wU.uKrceeWnZ Ow13dDDEf005NPFqUKF4sAKvrvHw9lt4S8M2ABZggbgFdfwZn9C2u1pLZy1r jYGaD27eubAQY54PZdJqvbD1b2Rjtms49Tfwvzo_2_ciTjTdAVLdUcUinuh4 vMKw2sDhVXgP6pHFrxIkJCDQ- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp114-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2011 14:05:29 -0700 PDT References: <1318202744.44997.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201110201551.34676.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4EA0D3C2.4050708@gmail.com> <201110202325.23106.phma@phma.optus.nu> <20111021041242.GC28229@gonzales> <4EA15CE9.3000900@gmail.com> <1319211343.75477.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EA1A37B.4010905@gmail.com> <4EA1B543.1000705@gmail.com> <4EA1CD72.7010608@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4EA1CD72.7010608@gmail.com> X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <07410E94-6679-445B-910D-BF34591D7F08@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_10661251_AHnHjkQAAJNsTqHPGgSbqCTAfj4 Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:19:13 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.52.68 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / The problem is, of course, the uncertainty about the semantics of mass noun= s. I think that Lojban can find expressions that work more or less like ma= ss nouns, while remaining count at their heart. The other approach, which = does turn up in Lojban already is to take mass "nouns" as "adjectives": the= first definition of {djacu} is "made of water", the last is "aqueous". We= rarely worry about what {lo redro} might mean with quantifiers attached, though it= raises similar problems to {lo djacu}.=20 Sent from my iPad On Oct 21, 2011, at 15:52, And Rosta wrote: > John E. Clifford, On 21/10/2011 20:26: >> ? because any number attached to {djacu} would be wrong; there would >> be both more and fewer quantities of water involved(aside from the >> case of deionized molecules, say)? >=20 > Yes. >=20 >> I don't think that is in keeping >> with Lojban thinking, which would take the number to be the number of >> separate puddles or whatever. >=20 > One presumes that the criteria for individuating apples are specified in = the semanticon entry for {plise}, since these criteria are intrinsic to the= definition of applehood. But is the same true for {djacu} -- that the sema= nticon specifies precisely what does and does not count as a single amount = of water, and that for any distribution of water, these criteria will yield= only one possible cardinality for the quantity of amounts of water in that= distribution? >=20 >> Internal quantifier in descriptions >> would be more problematic, since you might usually be able to get >> more bits out than the quantifier says were in. I am inclined to >> think that not having mass nouns was a mistake, except that the logic >> of them was so poorly worked out back then (and has bad gaps even >> now). This does not seem to me to be a reason to shift over -- to get >> back to something like the stated topic -- to like massy things like >> kinds or whatever. >=20 > I'm not yet convinced that {djacu} is not a mass noun. But anyway, as I s= aid in an earlier reply to you when you made the same point, even if no gis= mu is a mass noun, nothing (afaik) precludes another brivla or cmene from b= eing a mass noun, so Lojban does have mass nouns. >=20 > Obviously by "having mass noun", you and I mean sumti (places) thathave m= ass-noun-like semantics. >=20 > --And. >=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Oct 21, 2011, at 14:09, And Rosta wrote: >>=20 >>> John E. Clifford, On 21/10/2011 19:00: >>>> Sorry, I seem to have missed the point. I took the failure of {su'o d= jacu} to be because "at least one" did not get to the minimum possibility,= hence the need to go to "more than zero". But that was me getting mixed u= p in the surrounding talk about{pi} and {lo}. >>>=20 >>> No, I did say that as an afterthought, and I was wrong. {su'o djacu} do= es work. What doesn't work is any specific cardinal other than ci'i. So {pa= djacu} and {re djacu} fail, by the Goatleg rule, which says that bare PA m= eans "exactly PA, no more and no less". >>>=20 >>> --And. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>> On Oct 21, 2011, at 12:53, And Rosta wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> John E Clifford, On 21/10/2011 16:35: >>>>>> I don't see why; {djacu} is as quantized as every other Lojban predi= cate. >>>>>=20 >>>>> You don't agree that half an amount of water is also an amount of wat= er? >>>>>=20 >>>>> --And. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>>> From: And Rosta >>>>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>>>> Sent: Fri, October 21, 2011 6:52:09 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified= plural >>>>>> variable >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Martin Bays, On 21/10/2011 05:12: >>>>>>> * Thursday, 2011-10-20 at 23:25 -0400 - Pierre Abbat: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Thursday 20 October 2011 22:06:58 And Rosta wrote: >>>>>>>>> When I was last up-to-date with developments, nothing was officia= l, but I >>>>>>>>> think I can recall the rudiments of our best efforts at that time= to >>>>>>>>> construct a consistent and rational gadri system. As far as I now= recall, >>>>>>>>> "half an apple" would be "lo pi mu plise", while "pi mu lo plise"= would be >>>>>>>>> the "one in every two apples" one. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> If "pimu lo plise" means "one in every two apples", then "pa lo pl= ise" should >>>>>>>> mean "every apple". I think "lo pimu plise" is "a half apple" >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> But {lo PA broda cu broda} is meant to be a tautology. Half-apples >>>>>>> aren't apples. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So {lo pi mu plise cu plise} fails that test, but {lo pi mu djacu cu= djacu} >>>>>> passes it. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Following a line of thought that that observation initiates, I note = that by the >>>>>> Goatleg rule, {su'o plise} is okay but {su'o djacu} is not and would= instead >>>>>> have to be {za'u djacu} or {ci'i djacu}. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> --And. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@goog= legroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den. >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.