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* Sunday, 2011-10-23 at 14:15 -0700 - John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com=
>:

> Maybe I shouldn't have made the Buddhist crack, it does complicate matter=
s.  If=20
> you take different times as separate worlds, then the ever-new view of do=
mains=20
> does turn out to be like xorxes stages.  That is certainly not my intenti=
on, on=20
> either view (though the problem doesn't arise on the always-same view) [I=
=20
> actually tend to be a nominalist in a rather strict sense and so closer t=
o Hans'=20
> discourse representation, which never officially gets behind the words. B=
ut that=20
> is not relevant here.]  But given that alway-new sense and taking times a=
s=20
> worlds, your description of the situation is essentially correct (and its=
 vague=20
> feeling of absurdity is one of the problems with that interpretation).  T=
he=20
> connection between the two sets of albatrosses is not merely anaphora, bu=
t=20
> something involving vectors in time or some such analogy - "world lines" =
is a=20
> nice cover term (which, alas, also seem to reify the connections -- an ol=
d=20
> problem for Buddhists, too).  Of course, "here now" does cut things down =
to=20
> existents, pretty sharply (I suppose someone could argue, .... .  But why=
=20
> bother?). The point is that Lojban quantifiers do not add "and exists", e=
ver. =20
> That comes out of the predicates, if at all.  As to whether the former fl=
ying=20
> albatrosses are flying now, that is hard to say (partly because it is unc=
lear=20
> just what is being asked); in some cases they are in the current domain o=
f=20
> discourse and in the extensions of both "albatross" and "flying", but it =
is not=20
> clear whether the current domain of discourse is tightly correlated with =
"now". =20
> And, of course, there is no rule that requires either the always-new=20
> interpretation of things nor the worlds view of time.  There are advantag=
es and=20
> disadvantages to all of these choices.
>
> A reasonable view (except for the=20
> complexities that spelling it out exactly involves) is that each world ex=
tends=20
> through time, with things coming into existence and falling out as time g=
oes=20
> along, i.e., that our world is a typical world.  The formal gains of devi=
ating=20
> from this view have to be pretty impressive to justify shifting from it. =
 On=20
> that view, the ten minutes ago's flying albatrosses still exist (most of =
them=20
> anyhow usually) but are no longer flying (the ones we can see, anyhow) an=
d they=20
> did look funny and so contribute to the general claim that flying albatro=
sses=20
> look funny, even though they now look quite sedate -- largely because the=
y are=20
> not flying.

But the point was that we needed all flying albatrosses to satisfy "is
flying" at a single time for the (ii) interpretation of {lo} to work.
I thought you were claiming this.

If you're not... I'm relieved!

What you wrote from "A reasonable view" on seems to agree with the
kind of universe I'd been assuming (i.e. that of Montague's PTQ).

So do we agree that (i), or your generalised arbitrary-partition version
(is), is needed to do kinds-like things with {lo} (assuming we want to
avoid introducing xorxes-kinds)?

Martin

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