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[192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l3si13188567pbd.0.2011.10.24.11.46.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9OIkqVr003710 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:46:52 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1RIPXw-0003YZ-1r for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:46:52 -0400 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:46:52 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Message-ID: <20111024184651.GC3062@gonzales> References: <20111021190055.GF28229@gonzales> <4E25E755-2FF6-4BDB-A5A4-5252845E0992@yahoo.com> <20111022030801.GG28229@gonzales> <1319308068.11247.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111023203658.GH28229@gonzales> <1319404501.57946.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111023213304.GA3230@gonzales> <20111024151402.GA3062@gonzales> <4EA5ACD4.4030106@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ghzN8eJ9Qlbqn3iT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4EA5ACD4.4030106@gmail.com> X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: jalge User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --ghzN8eJ9Qlbqn3iT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Monday, 2011-10-24 at 19:22 +0100 - And Rosta : > Martin Bays, On 24/10/2011 16:14: > > * Sunday, 2011-10-23 at 18:57 -0400 - John E. Clifford: > >> On kinds, my position is just that kinds (if you want to use that > >> word) are just biggest bunches viewed in certain ways and so call for > >> nothing other than things of the ordinary sort. > > > > I seem to be in agreement. But I guess no-one else is, so far. >=20 > I don't think me and xorxes disagree with you and John. If there is > disagreement, it is over how many are in the biggest bunches. You, > I gather, would say that there is only one possible cardinality for > the biggest bunch of broda, whereas xorxes and I would say that the > universe, or universe of discourse, can be understood in infinitely > many different ways, such that across these different ways the > cardinality for the biggest bunch of broda varies from one to > infinity. I think xorxes and me would also say that this holds also of > referents of {la}, and also pronouns like {mi, do}, and that these > biggest bunches are treated like individuals. This last - reification of bunches as individuals - is the only point of disagreement I would consider key. Of course I wouldn't claim that there is one fixed universe of discourse within which all lojban expressions must be interpreted. I would consider it perverse for you to make what appears to be general statement about lions, and yet have only one or a few lions in your universe for the statement to apply to. But that's because I would only accept lions, and not the kind 'lions', as lions. Martin --ghzN8eJ9Qlbqn3iT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk6lspsACgkQULC7OLX7LNZDhgCeKk0kYLA87nulxr3TcSp8NIi0 1UAAn3a/4Usiwjba5X/AhhHwx5sraQ1A =n/r3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ghzN8eJ9Qlbqn3iT--