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Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 00:45:20 +0100
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
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To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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Martin Bays, On 24/10/2011 19:46:
> * Monday, 2011-10-24 at 19:22 +0100 - And Rosta<and.rosta@gmail.com>:
>
>> Martin Bays, On 24/10/2011 16:14:
>>> * Sunday, 2011-10-23 at 18:57 -0400 - John E. Clifford<kali9putra@yahoo=
.com>:
>>>> On kinds, my position is just that kinds (if you want to use that
>>>> word) are just biggest bunches viewed in certain ways and so call for
>>>> nothing other than things of the ordinary sort.
>>>
>>> I seem to be in agreement. But I guess no-one else is, so far.
>>
>> I don't think me and xorxes disagree with you and John. If there is
>> disagreement, it is over how many are in the biggest bunches. You,
>> I gather, would say that there is only one possible cardinality for
>> the biggest bunch of broda, whereas xorxes and I would say that the
>> universe, or universe of discourse, can be understood in infinitely
>> many different ways, such that across these different ways the
>> cardinality for the biggest bunch of broda varies from one to
>> infinity. I think xorxes and me would also say that this holds also of
>> referents of {la}, and also pronouns like {mi, do}, and that these
>> biggest bunches are treated like individuals.
>
> This last - reification of bunches as individuals - is the only point of
> disagreement I would consider key.

Would you say that the referents of la & do are always treated like individ=
uals? Or that when the referents are individuals they're treated as individ=
uals and when the referents are bunches they're treated as bunches? If the =
latter, then we might still agree.

> Of course I wouldn't claim that there is one fixed universe of discourse
> within which all lojban expressions must be interpreted.
>
> I would consider it perverse for you to make what appears to be general
> statement about lions, and yet have only one or a few lions in your
> universe for the statement to apply to. But that's because I would only
> accept lions, and not the kind 'lions', as lions.

It depends how many lions there are. You're free to think it perverse of me=
 to think there is only one lion (-- that all lions are one and the same), =
just as I might think it is perverse of you to think there is only one Obam=
a (-- that all Obamas are one and the same). Given that we may disagree how=
 many lions and Obamas there are, it can't be reasonable to insist on our a=
greeing on the number of lions and Obamas as a prerequisite to us communica=
ting in Lojban.

--And.

--=20
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