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On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> * Monday, 2011-10-24 at 19:05 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.=
com
> >:
>
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > The issue was simply whether, in {lo vofli cipnralbatrossa cu xajmi},
> we
> > > have
> > > (a) a bunch of things, which is at some time a bunch of flying
> > > albatrosses
> > > or (b) a bunch of things each of which are at some time flying
> > > albatrosses.
> >
> > I thought you also mentioned (c) a bunch of things such that at some
> > time for all of them, each of them is a flying albatross.
>
> I'm assuming that "is a flying albatross" is distributive, so (c) is the
> same as (a).
>
> > But if you are going to introduce time in a sentence that doesn't
> > necessarily bring it up, shouldn't you also consider space?
>
> Quite probably so, yes; I was using 'time' as simplifying shorthand for
> 'world'. It would indeed be nice if we could consider space to be just
> another co-ordinate involved in specifying a world.
>
> But actually, there's a problem, even if we consider only time. Assuming
> flying albatrosses remain albatrosses when they're not flying, in {lo
> vofli cipnrxalbatrosi cu broda} (thanks for the fu'ivla correction,
> btw), if the lo term gets as referents the bunch of all things which
> have ever been flying albatrosses, that's just the bunch of all things
> which have ever been albatrosses.
>

  So this question is really one of whether "lo vofli cipnrxalbatrosi"
defaults in meaning to "lo cipnrxalbatrosi poi ca'a vofli"  or
"lo cipnrxalbatrosi poi pu'i/ka'e vofli"?  I think that's pretty much left
up to context and either could be correct (for all we know, it could even
refer to an albatross that's on Qantas).


> So unless we introduce stages, which causes the same kinds of problems
> that introducing kinds does, this "maximal bunch" approach to kinds
> seems doomed.
>
> Curses.
>
> OK, so I'm back to {lo ka vofli cipnrxalbatrosi cu xajmi}.
>
> Martin
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Martin Bays <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">* Monday, 2011-10-24 at 19:05 -0=
300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambi=
as@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>

<div class=3D"im"><br>&gt; On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Martin Bays &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt; &gt; The issue was simply whether, in {lo vofli cipnralbatrossa c=
u xajmi}, we<br>
&gt; &gt; have<br>&gt; &gt; (a) a bunch of things, which is at some time a =
bunch of flying<br>&gt; &gt; albatrosses<br>&gt; &gt; or (b) a bunch of thi=
ngs each of which are at some time flying<br>&gt; &gt; albatrosses.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; I thought you also mentioned (c) a bunch of things such that a=
t some<br>&gt; time for all of them, each of them is a flying albatross.<br=
><br></div>I&#39;m assuming that &quot;is a flying albatross&quot; is distr=
ibutive, so (c) is the<br>
same as (a).<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>&gt; But if you are going to introduce time in a sent=
ence that doesn&#39;t<br>&gt; necessarily bring it up, shouldn&#39;t you al=
so consider space?<br><br></div>Quite probably so, yes; I was using &#39;ti=
me&#39; as simplifying shorthand for<br>
&#39;world&#39;. It would indeed be nice if we could consider space to be j=
ust<br>another co-ordinate involved in specifying a world.<br><br>But actua=
lly, there&#39;s a problem, even if we consider only time. Assuming<br>
flying albatrosses remain albatrosses when they&#39;re not flying, in {lo<b=
r>vofli cipnrxalbatrosi cu broda} (thanks for the fu&#39;ivla correction,<b=
r>btw), if the lo term gets as referents the bunch of all things which<br>
have ever been flying albatrosses, that&#39;s just the bunch of all things<=
br>which have ever been albatrosses.<br></blockquote>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0=A0So this question is really one of whether &quot;lo vofli cipnrxa=
lbatrosi&quot; defaults in meaning to &quot;lo=A0cipnrxalbatrosi poi ca&#39=
;a vofli&quot;=A0=A0or &quot;lo=A0cipnrxalbatrosi poi=A0pu&#39;i/ka&#39;e v=
ofli&quot;?=A0 I think that&#39;s pretty much left up to context and either=
 could be correct (for all we know, it could even refer to an albatross tha=
t&#39;s on Qantas).</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">So unless we introduce stages, w=
hich causes the same kinds of problems<br>that introducing kinds does, this=
 &quot;maximal bunch&quot; approach to kinds<br>
seems doomed.<br><br>Curses.<br><br>OK, so I&#39;m back to {lo ka vofli cip=
nrxalbatrosi cu xajmi}.<br><font color=3D"#888888"><br>Martin<br></font></b=
lockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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