Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:36656) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RJOsQ-0000vQ-OZ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:16:14 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf3486018pzk.16 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:16:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nZVoZ1ORqwK8LSl2h+65wvCAYmuwsxd9dJ12GBY9Kuo=; b=LoYkD92RMvLJZv76o+fujA4jR4uiiI7X02MzLx6vVeR4KP7VU7151p3Upv3Cifa+9s EEoze73qJF9tC+pn1062xmQnGEUQ+HyQmpSd59JEiaGukf43iV7a4/Fw0OU5a0L1WMXV DwSOl6R+dle6rNXX8dVzbhYk9nS0pravWF0jw= Received: by 10.68.75.230 with SMTP id f6mr7104422pbw.12.1319717758282; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.14.72 with SMTP id n8ls4500072pbc.0.gmail; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.30.34 with SMTP id p2mr17831316pbh.4.1319717757645; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.30.34 with SMTP id p2mr17831314pbh.4.1319717757626; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f48.google.com (mail-pz0-f48.google.com [209.85.210.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l5si6173482pbe.2.2011.10.27.05.15.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.48; Received: by mail-pz0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 37so7621068pzk.7 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.12.199 with SMTP id a7mr8994006pbc.58.1319717756989; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.29.18 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:15:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4ae1bfdf-61ba-4539-84e0-0a56a67480fd@u13g2000vbx.googlegroups.com> <17558590.1835.1319383267925.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqbl36> <201110231635.52021.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1319423266.86720.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <12044470.729.1319460986934.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbza28> <12771495.560.1319462797316.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqbl36> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:15:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: lojban and PR From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5215f711befd904b046bc3a X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec5215f711befd904b046bc3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now, wait a minute. No one said that you shouldn't "missionize lojban around the world". I would love to have more lojban users. But the point is that lojban (and Loglan) were never intended to be an IAL. That's not just what they're about. The fact that the vocabulary and gammar are equally hard or easy to learn by everyone, no matter what their natural language background, is a minor part of the design, not its major focus. W= e aren't out to bring peace and brotherhood among all mankind. That's Esperanto's goal. If you want a global language, though, there already exists one: http://snipurl.com/2dj87f The point about English (or Globish) is that the amount of it that's truly "English" these days is miniscule. It's grammar has been streamlined, its vocabulary is glommed from all over the world, and constantly growing everyday, and it is spoken by almost 2 billion people. I doubt lojban will reach that level (well, until the worl= d population is in the quadriillions, anyway). So missionize away, just be a realist about it. Not everyone will have the success of a Ben-Yehuda (afte= r 125 years, approx. 6 million native speakers of modern Herbew, and another = 3 million or so secondary speakers), or even a Zamenhof (after the same amoun= t of time, less than 1000 native speakers of Esperanto and no more than 2 million total). --gejyspa On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd w= rote: > ok, > just to summarize the discussion here. > It seems that none of you think that it's a good idea to missionize lojba= n > around the world right now (even if I would like to do just that here in > Sweden when my lojban-skills are better). > Instead you would like to improve the language itself first. Some of you > would like to make huge changes (like Muhammed), that would make it a > totally different language. I don't see why really, since I think lojban > generally has a great grammatical structure. Others (including me) would > like to make less significant changes, for example to revise some of the > word definitions (especielly to be consistent about name of species, > colours, scientifical and metaphysical concepts etc). > > > Matt Arnold: > > "Most of the people who are centrally active in the language do not > want it to become a transnational language. I, for one, see no > benefit, and see a great deal of harm that would do." > > ok, I don't agree since I only see advantages with a global language. Not > everyone like the fact that english is the dominant language in the world= . I > think that a lot of people in the world associate english with the langua= ge > of their oppressors (or at least something negative), not the language of > the global civic society. > > Also, the english grammar is very unlogical and I myself feel very > uncomfortable expressing things in english, since it often doesn't *sound= s > * quite right what I'm writing or saying, even if it may be logical and > comprehensible. > > Anyway, I think it's ok to have different opinions about this. The lojban > community has the language as the common platform, and should avoid to ma= ke > decisions about other things like the socio-cultural usages of the langua= ge > or political agendas. But that doesn't hinder individual jbopli like myse= lf > to view lojban as a potential transnational language. > > I agree with Pierre Abbat that some of the discussions here are > incomprehensible (hey I don't even speak english as my native language as > you probably can see). > > But if we're going to improve the language, I still insist that we have t= o > be more organized. Who will remember what has been said in this forum 6 > months ago? I think it would be better to have different projects clearly > listed on the lojban web site: grammatical-logical projects, projects to > make templates for constructing new name of species, terminology in > different scientific fields, metaphysical concepts (philosophy, religion, > new age etc), definitions of colors etc etc. And to specify how many pers= ons > is engaged in each project, the current status and so on. That would be > really nice! > > mu'o mi'e jongausib > > > > 2011/10/25 Michael Turniansky > >> ma'upa >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: >> >>> Is it just me, or does "making a better lojban" come up every 6 months = or >>> so? >>> >>> Not to derail your thread/enthusiasm NH, but I swear to god, if we had = as >>> many people learning lojban as we have trying to redesign it / design >>> loccan, our user base would be huge >>> On Oct 24, 2011 9:26 AM, "Muhammad Nael" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm being reasonably optimistic thinking it'd take *less* than 5 years >>>> to *make *a Lojban successor... I'll have a week off in the next few >>>> days, so I won't debate the new-vocab issue now... >>>> I never said that current users should switch, only that they should >>>> work on a better platform for possible near-future adherents. >>>> I study linguistics as a hobby, but I can't agree or disagree with the >>>> specific issue you cited. In any case, Lojban-2, Loccan-3, Loghnat,...= etc >>>> should be built in a pyramid model taking into account all the points = ye >>>> have raised countless times in which I've no doubt; ie. there should b= e >>>> simpler 'layers' of the same language that wouldn't need the learner t= o know >>>> the language perfectly before he can use it minimally! >>>> I may not have made my point very clear; I apologize but I'm very busy >>>> today. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> MN >>>> >>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec5215f711befd904b046bc3a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0=A0=A0 Now, wait a minute.=A0 No one said that you= shouldn't "missionize lojban around the world".=A0 I would l= ove to have more lojban users.=A0 But the point is that lojban (and Loglan)= were never intended to be an IAL.=A0 That's not just what they're = about.=A0 The=A0fact that the vocabulary and gammar=A0are equally hard or e= asy to learn=A0 by everyone, no matter what their natural language backgrou= nd, is a minor part of the design, not its major focus.=A0 We aren't ou= t to bring peace and brotherhood among all mankind.=A0 That's Esperanto= 's goal.=A0 If you want a global language, though, there already exists= one: http://snipurl.com/2dj87f= =A0The point about English (or Globish) is that the amount of it that's= truly "English" these days is miniscule.=A0 It's grammar has= been streamlined, its vocabulary is glommed from all over the world, and c= onstantly growing everyday, and it is spoken by almost 2 billion people.=A0= I doubt lojban will reach that level (well, until the world population is = in the quadriillions, anyway).=A0 So missionize away, just be a realist abo= ut it.=A0 Not everyone will have the success of a Ben-Yehuda (after 125 yea= rs, approx. 6 million native speakers of modern Herbew, and another 3 milli= on or so secondary speakers), or even a Zamenhof (after the same amount of = time, less than 1000 native speakers of Esperanto and no more than 2 millio= n total).
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd &= lt;so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
ok,
just to summarize the dis= cussion here.
It seems that none of you think that it's a good idea = to missionize lojban around the world right now (even if I would like to do= just that here in Sweden when my lojban-skills are better).
Instead you would like to improve the language itself first. Some of you wo= uld like to make huge changes (like Muhammed), that would make it a totally= different language. I don't see why really, since I think lojban gener= ally has a great grammatical structure. Others (including me) would like to= make less significant changes, for example to revise some of the word defi= nitions (especielly to be consistent about name of species, colours, scient= ifical and metaphysical concepts etc).


Matt Arnold:=20

"Most of the people who are centrally = active in the language do not
want it to become a transnational language= . I, for one, see no
benefit, and see a great deal of harm that would do= ."

ok, I don't agree since I only see adva= ntages with a global language. Not everyone like the fact that english is t= he dominant language in the world. I think that a lot of people in the worl= d associate english with the language of their oppressors (or at least some= thing negative), not the language of the global civic society.

Also, the english grammar is very unlogical= and I myself feel very uncomfortable expressing things in english, since i= t often doesn't sounds quite right what I'm writing or sayin= g, even if it may be logical and comprehensible.

Anyway, I think it's ok to have differe= nt opinions about this. The lojban community has the language as the common= platform, and should avoid to make decisions about other things like the s= ocio-cultural usages of the language or political agendas. But that doesn&#= 39;t hinder individual jbopli like myself to view lojban as a potential tra= nsnational language.

I agree with Pierre Abbat that some of the = discussions here are incomprehensible (hey I don't even speak english a= s my native language as you probably can see).

But if we're going to improve the langu= age, I still insist that we have to be more organized. Who will remember wh= at has been said in this forum 6 months ago? I think it would be better to = have different projects clearly listed on the lojban web site: grammatical-= logical projects, projects to make templates for constructing new name of s= pecies, terminology in different scientific fields, metaphysical concepts (= philosophy, religion, new age etc), definitions of colors etc etc. And to s= pecify how many persons is engaged in each project, the current status and = so on. That would be really nice!

mu'o mi'e jongausib



=
2011/10/25 Michael Turniansky = <mturniansky@= gmail.com>
ma'upa=20


On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it just me, or does "making a better lojban" come up every = 6 months or so?

Not to derail your thread/enthusiasm NH, but I swear to god, if we had a= s many people learning lojban as we have trying to redesign it / design loc= can, our user base would be huge

On Oct 24, 2011 9:26 AM, "Muhammad Nael&quo= t; <muhamma= d.nael@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm being reason= ably optimistic thinking it'd take less=A0than 5 years to mak= e a Lojban successor... I'll have a week off in the next few days, = so I won't debate the new-vocab issue now...=20
I never said that current users should switch, only that they should w= ork on a better platform for possible near-future adherents.
I study=A0linguistics=A0as a hobby, but I can't agree or disagree = with the specific issue you cited. In any case, Lojban-2, Loccan-3, Loghnat= ,... etc should be built in a pyramid model taking into account all the poi= nts ye have raised countless times in which I've no doubt; ie. there sh= ould be simpler 'layers' of the same language that wouldn't nee= d the learner to know the language perfectly before he can use it minimally= !
I may not have made my point very clear; I apologize but I'm very = busy today.

Regards,
MN

=

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