Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:43899) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RJPhB-0001f2-Go; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:36 -0700 Received: by qyk30 with SMTP id 30sf3307905qyk.16 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hK19fZrzW+OcGkJbD+vv/32GATmA7w93jASwYyNry7A=; b=4Z7nb6mTq8fOQ7J9B7RLXDO0HJGGPMNrEhrsBchkciSAWjb0Pr59gcMCHwM7I6+KVc wRjbkoGOY/wldbBNTn8uURKXbkfiKTEF6k2mx6P/iA45+TDXIT+OuET17TC7lMEpT6pn TYm6bzblNtMLI8kgXDf6xP1rSyOz1AAVbImU0= Received: by 10.229.216.141 with SMTP id hi13mr1828085qcb.3.1319720904288; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.209.134 with SMTP id gg6ls3011458qab.2.gmail; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.9.194 with SMTP id m2mr12010396qam.8.1319720903795; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.9.194 with SMTP id m2mr12010394qam.8.1319720903776; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f178.google.com (mail-vx0-f178.google.com [209.85.220.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j6si3499665qct.1.2011.10.27.06.08.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.178; Received: by mail-vx0-f178.google.com with SMTP id fo14so3267513vcb.23 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.35.129 with SMTP id h1mr69895556pbj.92.1319720903413; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.29.18 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9080d508-6c45-431d-91f5-cc2cdae68ae1@q13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:08:23 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] skari From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec52160bba68f1404b04777c9 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec52160bba68f1404b04777c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, here I disagree, and for precisely the same reason you give. Imprecision is a good thing in color, because it then CAN depend on the individual's culture, traidition, vision problems, etc. Also, as you know, psychological and physiological color spaces are not the same as each other= , nor with what is reporducible on physical devices, etc. So even defining what the boundaries are can be tricky.) If you NEED precision, you can always do it, but don't lock in the color words with a precison. --gejyspa On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Sebastian Fr=C3=B6jd wrote: > well, > that's a good way to be really precise, although I don't get if 135, 206, > 235 refer to RGB, CMYK or Hue/Saturation/Value. > > Anyway in a world there some cultures don't make distinctions between bro= wn > and violet, or where how you're defining colors could be quite different,= I > think there's a need to be more precise about the basic definitions of > colors. Not that xunre should always mean #FF0000, but I think that shoul= d > be what it centres around. > > > mu'o mi'e jongausib > > > > Den torsdagen den 27:e oktober 2011 skrev Michael Turniansky< > mturniansky@gmail.com>: > > > We already have a way of describing colors that's more precise. Ther= e > is nothing wrong with a sentence like "lo tsani cu skari la'e li pacimu p= i'e > renoxa pi'e recimu" (actually, 1975 Loglan (and perhaps previous and > subsequent versions -- I don't know) had kolro defined as "X is a color w= ith > hue Y, saturation W, and brilliance H" Not sure when it morphed into the > curent lojban skari's type of definition. > > > > --gejyspa > > > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:05 AM, jongausib > wrote: > >> > >> coi > >> .arpis suggests in another thread that the definitions of colors could > >> be better: > >> {xunre} things like, "one of the three primary colors in the additive > >> model, the other two being {pelxu} and {crino}", "the color of an > >> iconic rose", "the color of blood", "a color", > >> > >> I think it would be good to have exact definitions of the colors, for > >> unambiguity. > >> So something like: > >> {xunre} x1 is red [color adjective] in color system x2 [default RGB > >> #FF0000/ CMYK (0, 100, 100, 0)]. > >> > >> Almost every color adjective gismu could easily be defined this way: > >> > >> crino green (lime) #00FF00 (100, 0, 100, 0) > >> pelxu yellow #FFFF00 (0, 0, 100, 0) > >> narju orange #FFA500 (0, 35,3, 100, 0) > >> xunre red #FF0000 (0, 100, 100, 0) > >> nukni magenta #FF00FF (0, 100, 0, 0) > >> zirpu purple/violet ? not clear! ? > >> blanu blue #0000FF (100, 100, 0, 0) > >> cicna cyan #00FFFF (100, 0, 0, 0) > >> > >> blabi white #FFFFFF (0, 0, 0, 0) > >> grusi gray #808080 (0, 0, 0, 50) > >> xekri black #000000 (0, 0, 0, 100 =E2=80=A0) > >> bunre brown (150, 75, 0) not clear! (0, 50, 100, 41) > >> > >> Compund colors are a bit more tricky. > >> If you say {blari'o} - you probably mean a bluish-type of green (more > >> green than blue), and {ri'obla} probably means a greenish-type of blue > >> (more blue than green). Since these words are lujvo, and not tanru, > >> we'll need exact definitions for them as well. None of them are right > >> between blue and green, that would be cicna (cyan). So how should you > >> interpret these words? I suggest that blari'o means exactly between > >> cicna and crino, and that ri'obla means exactly between cicna and > >> blanu. > >> > >> So for consistency, ri'orcicna (more cyan than green) is 25% of the > >> color range between cyan and green, and cicnyri'o (more green than > >> cyan) means 75% on the same scale. 50 % on the same scale is {ri'obla} > >> as mentioned above. > >> > >> I think this color model could be useful. The color adjective gismu > >> has the same hue value distance between each of them, except that > >> zirpu is synonymous to xunbla according to this modell (and therefore > >> is superfluous as a gismu) and that there unfortunately is a gismu > >> missing between crino and pelxu. > >> > >> Brown is more of a vague, intuitive definition in the range between > >> yellow and red. > >> And the current definitions for pink and rose are false, since those > >> colors isn't just a mixture between red and white, but also some > >> magenta. > >> > >> I think that most people will use the gismu colors and perhaps some of > >> the "first-order"-lujvo colors, and designers and other graphic > >> professionals would have usage for more complex lujvo-colors with > >> exact definitions. > >> Or using tanru with more vague definitions, like sfe'ero xunre > >> (falur=C3=B6d) or crino joi pelxu nukni (whatever that means?). > >> > >> mu'o mi'e jongausib > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec52160bba68f1404b04777c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Well, here I disagree, and for precisely the s= ame reason you give.=C2=A0 Imprecision is a good thing in color, because it= then CAN depend on the individual's culture, traidition, vision proble= ms, etc.=C2=A0 Also, as you know, psychological and physiological color spa= ces are not the same as each other, nor with what is reporducible on physic= al devices, etc. So even defining what the boundaries are can be tricky.) I= f you NEED precision, you can always do it, but don't lock in the color= words with a precison.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --g= ejyspa

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Sebastian Fr=C3= =B6jd <so.coo= l.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
well,
that's a good way t= o be really precise, although I don't get if 135, 206, 235 refer to RGB= , CMYK or Hue/Saturation/Value.

Anyway in a world there some cultures don't make distinctions betwe= en brown and violet, or where how you're defining colors could be quite= different, =C2=A0I think there's a need to be more precise about the b= asic definitions of colors. Not that xunre should always mean #FF0000, but = I think that should be what it centres around.=20


mu'o mi'e jongausib



= Den torsdagen den 27:e oktober 2011 skrev Michael Turniansky<mturniansky@gmail.com&g= t;:=20

> =C2=A0 We already have a way of describing color= s that's more precise.=C2=A0 There is nothing wrong with a sentence lik= e "lo tsani cu skari la'e li pacimu pi'e renoxa pi'e recim= u"=C2=A0 (actually, 1975 Loglan (and perhaps previous and subsequent v= ersions -- I don't know) had kolro defined as "X is a color with h= ue Y, saturation W, and brilliance H"=C2=A0 Not sure when it morphed i= nto the curent lojban skari's type of definition.
> =C2=A0
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa
>
> = On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:05 AM, jongausib <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
>= >
>> coi
>> .arpis suggests in another thread that the definitions of colors c= ould
>> be better:
>> {xunre} things like, "one of t= he three primary colors in the additive
>> model, the other two be= ing {pelxu} and {crino}", "the color of an
>> iconic rose", "the color of blood", "a color&q= uot;,
>>
>> I think it would be good to have exact defini= tions of the colors, for
>> unambiguity.
>> So something = like:
>> {xunre} x1 is red [color adjective] in color system x2 [default RG= B
>> #FF0000/ CMYK (0, 100, 100, 0)].
>>
>> Almo= st every color adjective gismu could easily be defined this way:
>>= ;
>> crino =C2=A0 green (lime) =C2=A0 =C2=A0#00FF00 (100, 0, 100, 0)>> pelxu =C2=A0 yellow =C2=A0#FFFF00 (0, 0, 100, 0)
>> narj= u =C2=A0 orange =C2=A0#FFA500 (0, 35,3, 100, 0)
>> xunre =C2=A0 re= d =C2=A0 =C2=A0 #FF0000 (0, 100, 100, 0)
>> nukni =C2=A0 magenta #= FF00FF (0, 100, 0, 0)
>> zirpu =C2=A0 purple/violet =C2=A0 ? not clear! =C2=A0 =C2=A0?
&= gt;> blanu =C2=A0 blue =C2=A0 =C2=A0#0000FF (100, 100, 0, 0)
>>= cicna =C2=A0 cyan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 #00FFFF =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(100, 0= , 0, 0)
>>
>> blabi =C2=A0 white =C2=A0 #FFFFFF (0, 0, 0,= 0)
>> grusi =C2=A0 gray =C2=A0 =C2=A0#808080 (0, 0, 0, 50)
>> x= ekri =C2=A0 black =C2=A0 #000000 (0, 0, 0, 100 =E2=80=A0)
>> bunre= =C2=A0 brown =C2=A0 (150, 75, 0) not clear! (0, 50, 100, 41)
>>>> Compund colors are a bit more tricky.
>> If you say {blari'o} - you probably mean a bluish-type of gree= n (more
>> green than blue), and {ri'obla} probably means a gr= eenish-type of blue
>> (more blue than green). Since these words a= re lujvo, and not tanru,
>> we'll need exact definitions for them as well. None of them ar= e right
>> between blue and green, that would be =C2=A0cicna (cyan= ). So how should you
>> interpret these words? I suggest that blar= i'o means exactly between
>> cicna and crino, and that ri'obla means exactly between cicna = and
>> blanu.
>>
>> So for consistency, ri'o= rcicna (more cyan than green) is 25% of the
>> color range between= cyan and green, and cicnyri'o (more green than
>> cyan) means 75% on the same scale. 50 % on the same scale is {ri&#= 39;obla}
>> as mentioned above.
>>
>> I think th= is color model could be useful. The color adjective gismu
>> has t= he same hue value distance between each of them, except that
>> zirpu is synonymous to xunbla according to this modell (and theref= ore
>> is superfluous as a gismu) and that there unfortunately is = a gismu
>> missing between crino and pelxu.
>>
>>= ; Brown is more of a vague, intuitive definition in the range between
>> yellow and red.
>> And the current definitions for pink a= nd rose are false, since those
>> colors isn't just a mixture = between red and white, but also some
>> magenta.
>>
>> I think that most people will use the gismu colors and perhaps som= e of
>> the "first-order"-lujvo colors, and designers an= d other graphic
>> professionals would have usage for more complex= lujvo-colors with
>> exact definitions.
>> Or using tanru with more vague defi= nitions, like sfe'ero xunre
>> (falur=C3=B6d) or crino joi pel= xu nukni (whatever that means?).
>>
>> mu'o mi'e = jongausib
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> To= post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@g= ooglegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at htt= p://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To pos= t to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://grou= ps.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>=20

--
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To post to this group, send email= to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
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