Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:43917) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RJSyj-0003nS-PH; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:58 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf3965650pzk.16 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/ojJ5+Yj/mNBzzM//O6y9llEK+qV60wMdjhoLSJNt4k=; b=jdQgQGreGxUcHWlRa4WX/s5hJ2H/uJshtCV00PbZGVR2WWRvPljPNJGBghde2njEmC qmwvPFa/nkACpX4gwW606iQ/S5bXnd9/49EhaDFbdzpcyMIcAcjOzBHtbq+Q3kKpS4H9 WZHcrpHSA9XrERgNZ2eFiwNODQAZmwiYYaj+I= Received: by 10.68.25.232 with SMTP id f8mr624935pbg.2.1319733524514; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.63.137 with SMTP id b9ls759488ibi.0.gmail; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.130.133 with SMTP id hm5mr33182368icc.3.1319733523681; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.130.133 with SMTP id hm5mr33182367icc.3.1319733523669; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm5-vm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm5-vm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com. [98.138.91.135]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id ic2si1059214icc.3.2011.10.27.09.38.43; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.135 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.135; Received: from [98.138.90.51] by nm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Oct 2011 16:38:43 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.173] by tm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Oct 2011 16:38:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Oct 2011 16:38:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 225542.42879.bm@omp1029.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 45568 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2011 16:38:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: LELVAaMVM1nQvHvJxDQDUj2GKE72.DM_ufliYqHf5FrMKs5 mVUeEuXziHFkmVizYj7pWoSuYVHnOOHDGYVK1InZuWguFQZnOVTKnkJH1dd_ djGnjOQEy9UN5cS0MvBJPlOAGmQeZI8BT2dwmr5DVJoVBdFdI94m5HSJvzGK yQUxipYEw4kR3Ko593AxD8Q_YUTrpiJ94cdrNIJmy9tI7K3BoEQEq7MFd_FS wiM54SO8Aql8_osVXnTbcUtSLkV9LJ8b3u115xTbwoLzVHr23Voqk60w_ofQ IKFvP0tk4H9h_MDqGFmzbhZ0kow8NoSh6eUeBBEEVoCgYYmllYXkPXa6Am2j si79olbpbxsh43h9LjbYnpa9IXJZE_gXJIiRT75pXgYaFwcmEleisHbFA.jb 7a0wcHmrwa7SWA.zDnc8w8dzdr5BquzZa2.pJ.bQY6.3y0Wfcvr4N0OzMQ.G lUaWgZb7suc79HisHlvFwHudvnVcuyqWGY5NU2m9tSdDpeJZLNiIQdNtEizo E22OJ X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp102-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 2011 09:38:42 -0700 PDT References: <4ae1bfdf-61ba-4539-84e0-0a56a67480fd@u13g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>

<201110270912.22706.phma@phma.optus.nu> In-Reply-To: <201110270912.22706.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_10749566_AHjHjkQAAQIGTqlYyQe8UheD1J4 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: lojban and PR Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:52:52 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.135 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / SAE is a Whorfian term and has very little to do with the specifics of word= class and paradigms. It has more to do with the metaphysical view of the = language. SAE languages are based on things doing stuff and having propert= ies. Other languages are based on processes going on or masses dividing or= kinds manifesting themselves. The issue in which all the unfortunate weir= d stuff turns up is more or less an effort to see what sort of language Loj= ban is and to what extent it can mirror the other kinds. As spoken first (= or so) order logic, it is clearly SAE in its most Aristotelian form, some s= ay it can be viewed as a mass/ kind language as well. =20 Sent from my iPad On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:12, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday 27 October 2011 05:14:58 Sebastian Fr=F6jd wrote: >> ok, >> just to summarize the discussion here. >> It seems that none of you think that it's a good idea to missionize lojb= an >> around the world right now (even if I would like to do just that here in >> Sweden when my lojban-skills are better). >> Instead you would like to improve the language itself first. Some of you >> would like to make huge changes (like Muhammed), that would make it a >> totally different language. I don't see why really, since I think lojban >> generally has a great grammatical structure. Others (including me) would >> like to make less significant changes, for example to revise some of the >> word definitions (especielly to be consistent about name of species, >> colours, scientifical and metaphysical concepts etc). >=20 > I'd like to see more Lojbanists whose first language isn't Indo-European.= The=20 > claim comes up frequently when there's a technical discussion that Lojban= is=20 > Standard Average European. It's obvious from its grammar that it's not: > *All European languages have grammatical number. Lojban doesn't. > *Most European languages have accusative alignment. Basque has ergative= =20 > alignment. Lojban has an indefinitely long sequences of argument places,= =20 > which occurs in no natural language as far as I know. > *All European languages have nouns (including common nouns), verbs, and= =20 > adjectives, of which normally only verbs show tense. Lojban has no adject= ives=20 > and uses verbs, which show tense, for common nouns and adjectives as well= as=20 > verbs. > I think that the appearance of SAE comes from most Lojbanists being nativ= e=20 > speakers of European languages, and if we got more Lojbanists whose nativ= e=20 > language have evidentials, tensed adjectives, and other non-European=20 > features, the appearance would disappear. >=20 > I would like to see a few changes, such as: > *drop the dimension place from "mitre" and express it some other way whic= h=20 > would also work with "gucti" > *add x2 to "remna" > *allow BIhI to have only one GAhO (there is a construction that would hav= e to=20 > be disambiguated). >=20 >> I agree with Pierre Abbat that some of the discussions here are >> incomprehensible (hey I don't even speak english as my native language a= s >> you probably can see). >=20 > It's not the language that makes it incomprehensible, it's the references= to=20 > L-sets, Chierchia, Skolem functions, and other things that one hears abou= t=20 > only in certain university courses, which I haven't taken. >=20 > Pierre > --=20 > sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.