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[66.94.236.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id s16si3272539ane.3.2011.10.27.19.23.52; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.19; Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Oct 2011 02:23:52 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.110] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Oct 2011 02:23:52 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Oct 2011 02:23:52 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 773318.26862.bm@omp1015.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 88897 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Oct 2011 02:23:52 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: KzCB2l8VM1lQz1BtzVBCbNFhEBDUDqs4K8qWnXLRkrtuQCb QF9dxPdeKr5hxm2rMvJPBG80t8jFv_Io8_iOzCWVXQcKlBQdei0tCS.PLSzx 34I_Ke0aszPqGnCGbhc79.zVmHECdJOOyIR3KmW.HcrAhzsD.8nnRMMXpNun PnheuNM19YQHyQsmJRU3eBauRRgRMw9Uf.fVUzMl2dcQkLI6h.M5AqN8osNL Si6gf5seI6COuuZD9whaCEVNZt.dmgSBFuFbbKYtXl.IOUubisDS.Yk9wRCR ZzuaV8oCsqjt.4t9bLbMaHYu8WMjwO8iKvFXE9qSDle908OZWtV8FDZVxV_1 YGjvr9q6kSlIkRkbCrhacQsSyIdmxfv8lQBP.Gx_JUm4i60mbzlmoOObn9Hk wSL331dCvA.DunNTK0oty41CwyN3XSTQ_hFVSawcYp7nwr.BWrg6x2tuNSfi ezO01IaYr2nyCBLcEXa4VfiTW8JjI6u0SzTSiH1GGnQnK.urDOIW9.6xVyIA AoHnMF9IhQXsjhlX.oGJaG2I6Zju.QO52TmZMfiWltXp7NFxwHqO7R2M- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:23:52 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681 References: <4ae1bfdf-61ba-4539-84e0-0a56a67480fd@u13g2000vbx.googlegroups.com> <201110270912.22706.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201110272147.40081.phma@phma.optus.nu> Message-ID: <1319768632.56314.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:23:52 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <201110272147.40081.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Errh. The Wikipedia page for what, exactly? That is, what is the list for= ?=20 Surely not SAE, since many such languages lack properties here checked and = have=20 those left unchecked (I take 'x' as a "no"). Are the checks for Lojban? A= nd=20 what do these things mean (especially "A, B, and C")? Morphosyntactic=20 alignment? I just see the relevance here. Look at Whorf. ----- Original Message ---- From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, October 27, 2011 8:47:36 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR On Thursday 27 October 2011 12:52:52 John E. Clifford wrote: > SAE is a Whorfian term and has very little to do with the specifics of wo= rd > class and paradigms. It has more to do with the metaphysical view of the > language. SAE languages are based on things doing stuff and having > properties. Other languages are based on processes going on or masses > dividing or kinds manifesting themselves. The issue in which all the > unfortunate weird stuff turns up is more or less an effort to see what so= rt > of language Lojban is and to what extent it can mirror the other kinds. = As > spoken first (or so) order logic, it is clearly SAE in its most > Aristotelian form, some say it can be viewed as a mass/ kind language as > well. Could you give examples of sentences showing these other kinds of languages= ? I found the Wikipedia page. Going down the lists: 1. Definite and indefinite articles =E2=9C=93 2. relative clauses are postnominal but don't have inflected pronouns =C3= =97 3. periphrastic perfect: there are no participles =C3=97 4. predicates to encode experiencers =E2=9C=93 5. passive participle =C3=97 6. anticausative verbs =C3=97 I think, since the transitive is derived=20 with "-gau, -ri'a, -zu'e" 7. dative external possessors =C3=97 8. negative indefinite =E2=9C=93 though it's two words 9. particle comparative =C3=97 (there is "me'a" but it's not the usual) 10. equative adverbial =C3=97 11. verb inflected for subject =C3=97 12. differentiation between intensifier and reflexive =E2=9C=93 Further features: 1. verb-initial yes/no =C3=97 2. comparative inflection =C3=97 it's a compound 3. A, B, and C =C3=97 4. comitative and instrumental =C3=97 5. second/two =C3=97 6. no alienable/inalienable distinction =C3=97 7. no clusivity distinction =C3=97 8. no productive reduplication =E2=9C=93 9. topic focus intonation word order =C3=97 (focus can be expressed by word= order,=20 but topic is expressed by prenex) 10. SVO =E2=9C=93 11. only one gerund =C3=97 12. neither-nor =C3=97 13. phrasal adverbs - not sure what, "still" is a single word 14. replacement of past by perfect =C3=97 The third list: The first six items, which are all phonetic, all =E2=9C=93.= Morphology=20 is both suffixing and prefixing and is not fusional at all. There is no=20 morphosyntactic alignment. Pierre --=20 li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.