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Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:42:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR
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I see I should have used "allegedly" more freely in that note, especially s=
ince=20
this is a "SWH is false" week. I'm not sure what a sentence from each such=
=20
language would do, but I can cite the standard languages of the various typ=
es. =20
The plug-and-socket types are shown by SAE languages, Chinese is usually gi=
ven=20
as a mass language (individuals as slices of the bulk), Trobriand Island as=
 kind=20
(whole present in all its 'manifestations') is usual.  Whorf's choices for =
flux=20
languages are Menominee and Hopi. Another type of language often talked abo=
ut,=20
but rarely (if ever) seen, is the language which takes the world to be mere=
=20
sense data popping into and out existence instantaneously (maybe a kind of =
flux=20
language).
As for missing the class, this stuff is often not in classes (I had courses=
 from=20
both Leonard and Goodman and never saw any calculus of individuals) but in =
stray=20
reading (xorxes is a pro at this, thank God, so the stuff does get down to =
us=20
fairly rapidly).  There used to be a course on Whorf at UCLA, though,  when=
ce=20
many of these jokes (although with a Scandanavian like Harry Hoijer it is h=
ard=20
to be sure which ones are the jokes).
As for characteristic instances, the Pidjin "one piecee man" does for masse=
s,=20
"gavagai" for kinds, and for processes, the Hopi name for Weeping Springs i=
s=20
literally "flowing downward whitely".  Whether there is anything to all thi=
s=20
remains the question (Hoijer's last lecture "Any way you slice it, it's sti=
ll=20
baloney").

----- Original Message ----
From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, October 27, 2011 8:47:36 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR

On Thursday 27 October 2011 12:52:52 John E. Clifford wrote:
> SAE is a Whorfian term and has very little to do with the specifics of wo=
rd
> class and paradigms.  It has more to do with the metaphysical view of the
> language.  SAE languages are based on things doing stuff and having
> properties.  Other languages are based on processes going on or masses
> dividing or kinds manifesting themselves.  The issue in which all the
> unfortunate weird stuff turns up is more or less an effort to see what so=
rt
> of language Lojban is and to what extent it can mirror the other kinds.  =
As
> spoken first (or so) order logic, it is clearly SAE in its most
> Aristotelian form, some say it can be viewed as a mass/ kind language as
> well.

Could you give examples of sentences showing these other kinds of languages=
?

I found the Wikipedia page. Going down the lists:
1. Definite and indefinite articles =E2=9C=93
2. relative clauses are postnominal but don't have inflected pronouns =C3=
=97
3. periphrastic perfect: there are no participles =C3=97
4. predicates to encode experiencers =E2=9C=93
5. passive participle =C3=97
6. anticausative verbs =C3=97 I think, since the transitive is derived=20
with "-gau, -ri'a, -zu'e"
7. dative external possessors =C3=97
8. negative indefinite =E2=9C=93 though it's two words
9. particle comparative =C3=97 (there is "me'a" but it's not the usual)
10. equative adverbial =C3=97
11. verb inflected for subject =C3=97
12. differentiation between intensifier and reflexive =E2=9C=93

Further features:
1. verb-initial yes/no =C3=97
2. comparative inflection =C3=97 it's a compound
3. A, B, and C =C3=97
4. comitative and instrumental =C3=97
5. second/two =C3=97
6. no alienable/inalienable distinction =C3=97
7. no clusivity distinction =C3=97
8. no productive reduplication =E2=9C=93
9. topic focus intonation word order =C3=97 (focus can be expressed by word=
 order,=20
but topic is expressed by prenex)
10. SVO =E2=9C=93
11. only one gerund =C3=97
12. neither-nor =C3=97
13. phrasal adverbs - not sure what, "still" is a single word
14. replacement of past by perfect =C3=97

The third list: The first six items, which are all phonetic, all =E2=9C=93.=
 Morphology=20
is both suffixing and prefixing and is not fusional at all. There is no=20
morphosyntactic alignment.

Pierre

--=20
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

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