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Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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So the forest-and-trees contrast is another version of the individuals-and-=
kinds=20
contrast, as here set out.  Actually, if I understand the (vaguely) standar=
d=20
terminology, a kinds view would be uncomfortable with individuals at any le=
vel,=20
using "much" rather than "many", for example and keeping numeration to a mi=
nimum=20
(story about an Abo being asked how many spears he had -- 5 visible -- and=
=20
replying "Much", then, asked how many have would have if one were taken awa=
y,=20
replied "Depends on which one".  Make of that what you will).  So, if {lo c=
info}=20
means "lionkind", one would expect that quantifiers, other than "much", "mo=
re"=20
"little" and the like, would not apply directly.  On the other hand, if {lo=
=20
cinfo} is mean to be a mass, one would expect overt determiners, "piecee" e=
t=20
al.  Neither is the case, leading one to think (even if not so inclined at =
the=20
start) that {lo cinfo} is composed of already individuated items that act i=
n=20
various ways sometimes independently of one another.  This isn't a glory, b=
ut it=20
is indicative, especially in the absence of other compelling evidence to th=
e=20
contrary and in the light of the thingy view being capable of handling most=
 of=20
the other stuff in only slighly peculiar ways.



----- Original Message ----
From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, October 29, 2011 8:55:59 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural=
=20
variable

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>
> But really, it seems that we are literally disagreeing on the meaning of
> {cinfo} - whether it means "is a lion", or "is Lion", or is ambiguous
> between the two. So wouldn't the most natural and lojbanic solution be
> to decide on one of the two as the meaning of {cinfo}, and have
> a tanru/lujvo ({cinfo pavrolza'i} or {cinfo dacti}, perhaps) for the
> other?

But wouldn't that just shift the whole discussion from "cinfo" to "dacti"?

~ Another Evolutionary Tale ~

One day, Mamma Human was with her two children, Moople and Cless, when
they saw Lion in the distance. Moople and Cless had never seen Lion
before and wanted to go and play with him, but Mamma Human told them
Lion was dangerous and they should never go anywhere close to him. The
next day, while Momma Human was away collecting fruit, Cless saw
something approaching and said "Hey Moople, there's Lion again, let's
get out of here! (*)" But Moople laughed and said "No silly, that's
not Lion. I saw that Lion had a mole on his forehead, and that one has
no mole. I'm going to play with him." Guess who grew up to have
descendants...

And now in Lojban:

ca lo djedi lo mamta remna cu kansa lo re panzi be ri be'o no'u la
.mupl. jo'u la .kles. .i ca bo viska lo cinfo noi darno .i la .mupl.
jo'u la .kles. no roi pu viska lo cinfo gi'e djica lo nu klama ri gi'e
kelci .i ku'i lo mamta remna cu jungau ra lo du'u lo cinfo cu ckape .e
lo du'u .ei no roi klama lo jibni be ri .i ca lo bavlamdei ca lo nu lo
mamta remna vu crepu lo grute kei la .kles. cu viska da noi ca'o
jbibi'o gi'e cusku lu ju'i .mupl. lo cinfo za'u re'u zvati .i .e'u
mi'o cliva li'u .i ku'i la .mupl. cu cmila gi'e cusku lu doi bebna tu
na cinfo .i mi pu viska lo nu lo pilba'a cu jadni lo sedycra be lo
cinfo .i tu na se pliba'a .i .ai mi ba klama tu gi'e kelci li'u .i ko
smadi lo du'u ma kau ma'urbi'o gi'e se panzi ...

(*) I read somewhere that "let's get out of here" is the most common
line in movies ever, but I suspect it may be just a myth.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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