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[192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l5si15970254pbe.2.2011.10.29.15.15.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9TMFBA2018573 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:15:12 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1RKHBG-0005IN-V5 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sat, 29 Oct 2011 18:15:11 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 18:15:10 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Message-ID: <20111029221510.GA32586@gonzales> References: <4EA60BBC.1040707@gmail.com> <20111025021504.GB27114@gonzales> <4EA68224.1080406@gmail.com> <20111026033114.GB3119@gonzales> <4EA7BF06.5050103@gmail.com> <4EAA8AC9.2010000@gmail.com> <20111029001437.GA5535@gonzales> <20111029145956.GB9385@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DocE+STaALJfprDB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: re User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Saturday, 2011-10-29 at 17:56 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > * Saturday, 2011-10-29 at 10:55 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > >> ca lo djedi lo mamta remna cu kansa lo re panzi be ri be'o no'u la > >> .mupl. jo'u la .kles. > > > > Off-topic, but why {jo'u} rather than {joi}? Do you have a theory of > > what the difference between those words is? >=20 > jo'u -> lo [re] > joi -> loi [re] >=20 > The difference between jo'u and joi is parallel to whatever difference > there is between lo and loi. Which you're still expecting to be something-or-other to do with distributivity? > .e -> ro [lo re] > .a -> su'o [lo re] > na.enai -> no [lo re] > na.anai -> me'i [lo re] > .onai -> pa [lo re] > .o -> (vei) no .a ro [lo re] Agreed. > > I was kind of thinking that {jo'u} should work like {e}, but be > > processed only after everything else so it has "innermost scope"; > > e.g. {broda ko'a jo'u ko'e ro brode} =3D=3D {broda ro brode ko'a .e ko'= e}. > > > > But that doesn't fit with how you just used it. >=20 > No, I don't think "jo'u" is necessarily distributive. OK. If it does end up being that no coherent lo/loi-like distinction between jo'u and joi can be found, though, I do think this would be a good use for {jo'u}. > >> .i ca bo viska lo cinfo noi darno .i la .mupl. > >> jo'u la .kles. no roi pu viska lo cinfo gi'e djica lo nu klama ri gi'e > >> kelci .i ku'i lo mamta remna cu jungau ra lo du'u lo cinfo cu ckape .e > >> lo du'u .ei no roi klama lo jibni be ri .i ca lo bavlamdei ca lo nu lo > >> mamta remna vu crepu lo grute kei la .kles. cu viska da noi ca'o > >> jbibi'o gi'e cusku lu ju'i .mupl. lo cinfo za'u re'u zvati .i .e'u > >> mi'o cliva li'u .i ku'i la .mupl. cu cmila gi'e cusku lu doi bebna tu > >> na cinfo .i mi pu viska lo nu lo pilba'a cu jadni lo sedycra be lo > >> cinfo > > > > Yes, that's just the sad kind of error you're likely to make if you > > aren't taught about individuals... he thinks that just because {lo cinfo > > cu broda}, it follows that {ro na broda na ku cinfo} - which is valid if > > {pa da cinfo} (which his kindly mother presumably taught him), modulo > > complicated tense issues he can be forgiven for overlooking. >=20 > My theory is that when the mother told him ".ei ko no roi klama lo > jibni be ri" he was unable to identify a wide enough referent for > "ri", perhaps because he had his mind too set on mundanes. Well, she should have been clearer. We need her to be able to be clearer. Martin --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk6seu4ACgkQULC7OLX7LNZX8ACfX6Ez47PEGRQ60XTnKzRuAzpr tXwAnjP2Hz8y4Qz4ATy8smc6Sk8mn3SL =ru2Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DocE+STaALJfprDB--