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Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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Whatever else it does ( and I confess to not following most of the subseque=
nt discussion), xorxes' story raises one of the great problems for the Aris=
totelian wing: how do we get to generalizations from limited instances?  Ch=
ildren who have seen only chihuahuas, somehow recognize terriers and spanie=
ls as dogs, for example.  Xorxes suggests the Platonic answer: we are direc=
tly aware of the kind when we see the instance (well, some of us, anyhow). =
I don't think that is a very good answer, but the attempts to find psycholo=
gical mechanism to explain how we do it so well are not much better.
But I still don't see why kinds (etc.) are needed for Lojban semantics or j=
ust explaining what Lojban expressions do nor why, if they are needed, maxi=
mal bunches of the appropriate sort won't do the trick -- at a significant =
ontological savings.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 29, 2011, at 10:59, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> * Saturday, 2011-10-29 at 10:55 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai=
l.com>:
>=20
>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> But really, it seems that we are literally disagreeing on the meaning o=
f
>>> {cinfo} - whether it means "is a lion", or "is Lion", or is ambiguous
>>> between the two. So wouldn't the most natural and lojbanic solution be
>>> to decide on one of the two as the meaning of {cinfo}, and have
>>> a tanru/lujvo ({cinfo pavrolza'i} or {cinfo dacti}, perhaps) for the
>>> other?
>>=20
>> But wouldn't that just shift the whole discussion from "cinfo" to "dacti=
"?
>=20
> Well, And seemed (I may well have misunderstood) willing to accept that
> lojban should be able to handle the notion of an object, just not that
> {cinfo} and similar should involve objects by default.
>=20
>> ~ Another Evolutionary Tale ~
>>=20
>> One day, Mamma Human was with her two children, Moople and Cless, when
>> they saw Lion in the distance. Moople and Cless had never seen Lion
>> before and wanted to go and play with him, but Mamma Human told them
>> Lion was dangerous and they should never go anywhere close to him. The
>> next day, while Momma Human was away collecting fruit, Cless saw
>> something approaching and said "Hey Moople, there's Lion again, let's
>> get out of here! (*)" But Moople laughed and said "No silly, that's
>> not Lion. I saw that Lion had a mole on his forehead, and that one has
>> no mole. I'm going to play with him." Guess who grew up to have
>> descendants...
>>=20
>> And now in Lojban:
>>=20
>> ca lo djedi lo mamta remna cu kansa lo re panzi be ri be'o no'u la
>> .mupl. jo'u la .kles.
>=20
> Off-topic, but why {jo'u} rather than {joi}? Do you have a theory of
> what the difference between those words is?
>=20
> I was kind of thinking that {jo'u} should work like {e}, but be
> processed only after everything else so it has "innermost scope";
> e.g. {broda ko'a jo'u ko'e ro brode} =3D=3D {broda ro brode ko'a .e ko'e}=
.
>=20
> But that doesn't fit with how you just used it.
>=20
>> .i ca bo viska lo cinfo noi darno .i la .mupl.
>> jo'u la .kles. no roi pu viska lo cinfo gi'e djica lo nu klama ri gi'e
>> kelci .i ku'i lo mamta remna cu jungau ra lo du'u lo cinfo cu ckape .e
>> lo du'u .ei no roi klama lo jibni be ri .i ca lo bavlamdei ca lo nu lo
>> mamta remna vu crepu lo grute kei la .kles. cu viska da noi ca'o
>> jbibi'o gi'e cusku lu ju'i .mupl. lo cinfo za'u re'u zvati .i .e'u
>> mi'o cliva li'u .i ku'i la .mupl. cu cmila gi'e cusku lu doi bebna tu
>> na cinfo .i mi pu viska lo nu lo pilba'a cu jadni lo sedycra be lo
>> cinfo
>=20
> Yes, that's just the sad kind of error you're likely to make if you
> aren't taught about individuals... he thinks that just because {lo cinfo
> cu broda}, it follows that {ro na broda na ku cinfo} - which is valid if
> {pa da cinfo} (which his kindly mother presumably taught him), modulo
> complicated tense issues he can be forgiven for overlooking.
>=20
>> .i tu na se pliba'a .i .ai mi ba klama tu gi'e kelci li'u .i ko
>> smadi lo du'u ma kau ma'urbi'o gi'e se panzi ...
>>=20
>> (*) I read somewhere that "let's get out of here" is the most common
>> line in movies ever, but I suspect it may be just a myth.
>=20
> Martin

--=20
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