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Subject: Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:12:28 -0400
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(1) Like FOL, Lojban has an infinite number of featureless plugs: variables=
, ko'a series, etc.  And, as you have pointed out, all descriptions are ini=
tially a featureless {zo'e} to which a predicate is applied.
(2) The socket terminology doesn't carry over well to masses and kinds, bec=
ause it is essential to sockets (properties, etc.) that they have holes in =
them, are unsaturated, as Frege said.  Masses and kind appear to be complet=
e in themselves,but also with features so that can be known (unlike individ=
uals in the earlier version).  Similarly, of course, individuals are indeed=
 derivative, a chunks or projections of the real stuff.  It appears, haecei=
ty aside, that these things may interpenetrate one another according to som=
e rules or tinge one another and that what we call individuals (if we do at=
 all) arise from slice or projections from such contaminated portions, as i=
t were.
(3) As noted, the plug and socket line is not the beginning of classificati=
on, but merely a catch phrase for one view.  And, plugs and sockets are cor=
relative; you can't have a functioning system without both.
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 31, 2011, at 8:29, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 6:29 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>> Well, I certainly don't think that Lojban is SAE in the Sprachbund sense=
; as Pierre points out it has very few of the characteristic features.  On =
the other hand, the metaphysical case seems fairly easy -- or did until Mr.=
 Broda showed up again. The whole plug and socket nature of a Lojban bridi =
screams it.
>=20
> (1)If I'm reading the plug and socket metaphor correctly, isn't Lojban
> mostly socket (BRIVLA) with very few underived plugs (KOhA)?
>=20
>>  But now that there are other interpretations which need to be considere=
d, I suppose we will have to wait a while. (but I still think it is and the=
 other interpretations are just wrong.  This is not, of course, what JCB wa=
nted ( and I did tell him he didn't have what he wanted), but a metaphysics=
-free language is not possible under SWH.  Nor, I think is one that treats =
all possibilities equally easily.  We can do mass/kind pretty easily in Loj=
ban, though it always seems periphrastic.
>=20
> (2)A mass/kind language would be an all plugs language, with sockets
> being derivative?
>=20
>>  I am less sure about flux or sense-data languages, mainly because I rea=
lly don't know how they work at all ( I miss things).
>=20
> (3)Wouldn't Lojban fit better as one of these? Assuming the
> classification is all plugs vs. plugs and sockets vs. all sockets, it
> seems that Lojban falls squarely in the last one, with a rather simple
> device ("lo") for turning sockets into plugs.
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>=20
> --=20
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>=20

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