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Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:56:29 -0600
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Subject: Re: Use fu'ivla more (was Re: [lojban] Supporting Lojbanic babies.)
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:06:38AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> <snip>

I don't see why you think fu'ivla or cmevla are
> > preferable to lujvo, though.
>
> Lujvo should only be used, IMO, when you need more than one place
> from the relevant gismu.  If all you *actually* want is "x1 is a
> foobie [of type x2]", that's a fu'ivle or cmevla.  I can imagine
> that a word for "labour contraction" with an actual interesting
> place structure could be made ("x1 is having contractions x2 minutes
> apart lasting for x3 minutes each" OSLT), but it's far from
> necessary, and none of those places leap out to me as being gismu
> places *anyways*.
>
> IOW, if you can't look at the *place structure* and say "that's a
> place from gasnu, and that's two places from krici, and that's two
> places from kubli", then what you have is not naturally a lujvo
> style place structure, and you should consider not using lujvo.
>
> Many many many specific/technical terms people try to make lujvo for
> shouldn't be, IMO.  Pretty much all computer stuff, for starters;
> "x1 is a motherboard" is all you want out of a word for
> "motherboard", which means you're not going to use any of the places
> of the 5 gismu you tacked together to make a lujvo for that, so it
> shouldn't be a lujvo.
>
> When you only expect to need the word for this current conversation,
> you can and should (IMO) use cmevla instead.  "ry lifri pa la
> kyntraktcyn" is (if that's a legal cmevla) perfectly fine for one
> conversation; unless we're starting the Lojban obstetrical
> department, who fucking cares?<snip>
>

I see your point. However, my objection to fu'ivla specifically isn't
related to that at all- I dislike them because they are ugly and/or
difficult. To the best of my knowledge, all fu'ivla are either easy to
make, but ugly and difficult to pronounce, like {cidjrspageti} and the rest
of it's type, or else require a great deal of effort to make in such a way
as to not be ugly and difficult to pronounce.

I have no objections to the use of cmevla- heck, my name is one. :)
However, regarding your point about words in which we would only ever care
about the first place, such as with motherboard, I personally prefer the
idea that .xorxes.(?) suggested about allowing cmevla to be used a selbri,
with the default meaning of such being "x1 is a (member of) <cmevla>":
i.e.; {ti (cu) .materbord.} = "This is a motherboard."

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--001517447a423d1c2404b0b5f187
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Robin Le=
e Powell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.or=
g">rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex;">
On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:06:38AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:<br>
&gt; On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Robin Lee Powell &lt;<br>
&lt;snip&gt;</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left=
: 1ex;"> I don&#39;t see why you think fu&#39;ivla or cmevla are<br>
&gt; preferable to lujvo, though.<br>
<br>
Lujvo should only be used, IMO, when you need more than one place<br>
from the relevant gismu. =A0If all you *actually* want is &quot;x1 is a<br>
foobie [of type x2]&quot;, that&#39;s a fu&#39;ivle or cmevla. =A0I can ima=
gine<br>
that a word for &quot;labour contraction&quot; with an actual interesting<b=
r>
place structure could be made (&quot;x1 is having contractions x2 minutes<b=
r>
apart lasting for x3 minutes each&quot; OSLT), but it&#39;s far from<br>
necessary, and none of those places leap out to me as being gismu<br>
places *anyways*.<br>
<br>
IOW, if you can&#39;t look at the *place structure* and say &quot;that&#39;=
s a<br>
place from gasnu, and that&#39;s two places from krici, and that&#39;s two<=
br>
places from kubli&quot;, then what you have is not naturally a lujvo<br>
style place structure, and you should consider not using lujvo.<br>
<br>
Many many many specific/technical terms people try to make lujvo for<br>
shouldn&#39;t be, IMO. =A0Pretty much all computer stuff, for starters;<br>
&quot;x1 is a motherboard&quot; is all you want out of a word for<br>
&quot;motherboard&quot;, which means you&#39;re not going to use any of the=
 places<br>
of the 5 gismu you tacked together to make a lujvo for that, so it<br>
shouldn&#39;t be a lujvo.<br>
<br>
When you only expect to need the word for this current conversation,<br>
you can and should (IMO) use cmevla instead. =A0&quot;ry lifri pa la<br>
kyntraktcyn&quot; is (if that&#39;s a legal cmevla) perfectly fine for one<=
br>
conversation; unless we&#39;re starting the Lojban obstetrical<br>
department, who fucking cares?&lt;snip&gt;<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>I see your point. However, my objection to fu=
&#39;ivla specifically isn&#39;t related to that at all- I dislike them bec=
ause they are ugly and/or difficult. To the best of my knowledge, all fu&#3=
9;ivla are either easy to make, but ugly and difficult to pronounce, like {=
cidjrspageti} and the rest of it&#39;s type, or else require a great deal o=
f effort to make in such a way as to not be ugly and difficult to pronounce=
.<br>
<br>I have no objections to the use of cmevla- heck, my name is one. :) How=
ever, regarding your point about words in which we would only ever care abo=
ut the first place, such as with motherboard, I personally prefer the idea =
that .xorxes.(?) suggested about allowing cmevla to be used a selbri, with =
the default meaning of such being &quot;x1 is a (member of) &lt;cmevla&gt;&=
quot;: i.e.; {ti (cu) .materbord.} =3D &quot;This is a motherboard.&quot;<b=
r clear=3D"all">
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

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