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From: Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 10:41:04 -0500
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Subject: Re: Use fu'ivla more (was Re: [lojban] Supporting Lojbanic babies.)
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That is very interesting, and I'll have to give it some thought. You seem
to be arguing mostly for stage-4 fu'ivla; what about stage-1 and stage-2
borrowings? It might be handy to use them liberally, particularly with
something like {cei}, to define later text.

.i me la'oi contraction cei kantrakto .i co'e li'o

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:06:38AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > 3.  The birth story is somewhat unusual and interesting.  Would
> > > you be interested in hearing it, in Lojban?  I was thinking of
> > > doing it on IRC, so it could be preserved for posterity; would
> > > someone be willing to turn it into something readable?  I would
> > > need a variety of vocab, in particular words for "labour" and
> > > "labour contraction" and "cervical dilation".  fu'ivla seem like
> > > decent choices there. Or, hell, cmevla.  We don't use cmevla
> > > enough for highly technical things around here.
> > >
> >
> > I'm rather busy with college right now, so I can't help in either
> > of those areas currently, but I am interested, and considering
> > this is a long-term deal, my ability, time constraints, etc. will
> > no doubt change. I don't see why you think fu'ivla or cmevla are
> > preferable to lujvo, though.
>
> Lujvo should only be used, IMO, when you need more than one place
> from the relevant gismu.  If all you *actually* want is "x1 is a
> foobie [of type x2]", that's a fu'ivle or cmevla.  I can imagine
> that a word for "labour contraction" with an actual interesting
> place structure could be made ("x1 is having contractions x2 minutes
> apart lasting for x3 minutes each" OSLT), but it's far from
> necessary, and none of those places leap out to me as being gismu
> places *anyways*.
>
> IOW, if you can't look at the *place structure* and say "that's a
> place from gasnu, and that's two places from krici, and that's two
> places from kubli", then what you have is not naturally a lujvo
> style place structure, and you should consider not using lujvo.
>
> Many many many specific/technical terms people try to make lujvo for
> shouldn't be, IMO.  Pretty much all computer stuff, for starters;
> "x1 is a motherboard" is all you want out of a word for
> "motherboard", which means you're not going to use any of the places
> of the 5 gismu you tacked together to make a lujvo for that, so it
> shouldn't be a lujvo.
>
> When you only expect to need the word for this current conversation,
> you can and should (IMO) use cmevla instead.  "ry lifri pa la
> kyntraktcyn" is (if that's a legal cmevla) perfectly fine for one
> conversation; unless we're starting the Lojban obstetrical
> department, who fucking cares?
>
> Those of you who have known me for a long time, xorxes especially,
> will note that this is a significant reversal of my previous stance.
> I think it's about how much time you've spent trying to actually
> spin whole sentences in Lojban in real time; IME most people who
> have done a lot of that start to develop a fondness for fu'ivla.
>
> I also think we, as a community, need to have less of a bug up our
> ass about picking the "right" natlang word for fu'ivla.  First off,
> who cares if there's a bunch of English-based words floating around?
> The won't sound like English after the conversion, and if it bothers
> you, make your next fu'ivla from german, or swahili.  Secondly, why
> not do it based on Lojban?  Look at a few relevant gismu or lujvo,
> and make it sound like them.  Avoids the whole problem very
> effectively.
>
> -Robin
>
> --
> http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
>

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--20cf307c9deef7c99804b0c24df2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is very interesting, and I&#39;ll have to give it some thought. You se=
em to be arguing mostly for stage-4 fu&#39;ivla; what about stage-1 and sta=
ge-2 borrowings? It might be handy to use them liberally, particularly with=
 something like {cei}, to define later text.<br>

<br>.i me la&#39;oi contraction cei kantrakto .i co&#39;e li&#39;o<br><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Robin Lee Powell =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org">rlpowe=
ll@digitalkingdom.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:06:38AM -0600, J=
onathan Jones wrote:<br>
&gt; On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Robin Lee Powell &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org">rlpowell@digitalkingdom=
.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 3. =A0The birth story is somewhat unusual and interesting. =A0Wou=
ld<br>
&gt; &gt; you be interested in hearing it, in Lojban? =A0I was thinking of<=
br>
&gt; &gt; doing it on IRC, so it could be preserved for posterity; would<br=
>
&gt; &gt; someone be willing to turn it into something readable? =A0I would=
<br>
&gt; &gt; need a variety of vocab, in particular words for &quot;labour&quo=
t; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;labour contraction&quot; and &quot;cervical dilation&quot;.=
 =A0fu&#39;ivla seem like<br>
&gt; &gt; decent choices there. Or, hell, cmevla. =A0We don&#39;t use cmevl=
a<br>
&gt; &gt; enough for highly technical things around here.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m rather busy with college right now, so I can&#39;t help in eit=
her<br>
&gt; of those areas currently, but I am interested, and considering<br>
&gt; this is a long-term deal, my ability, time constraints, etc. will<br>
&gt; no doubt change. I don&#39;t see why you think fu&#39;ivla or cmevla a=
re<br>
&gt; preferable to lujvo, though.<br>
<br>
Lujvo should only be used, IMO, when you need more than one place<br>
from the relevant gismu. =A0If all you *actually* want is &quot;x1 is a<br>
foobie [of type x2]&quot;, that&#39;s a fu&#39;ivle or cmevla. =A0I can ima=
gine<br>
that a word for &quot;labour contraction&quot; with an actual interesting<b=
r>
place structure could be made (&quot;x1 is having contractions x2 minutes<b=
r>
apart lasting for x3 minutes each&quot; OSLT), but it&#39;s far from<br>
necessary, and none of those places leap out to me as being gismu<br>
places *anyways*.<br>
<br>
IOW, if you can&#39;t look at the *place structure* and say &quot;that&#39;=
s a<br>
place from gasnu, and that&#39;s two places from krici, and that&#39;s two<=
br>
places from kubli&quot;, then what you have is not naturally a lujvo<br>
style place structure, and you should consider not using lujvo.<br>
<br>
Many many many specific/technical terms people try to make lujvo for<br>
shouldn&#39;t be, IMO. =A0Pretty much all computer stuff, for starters;<br>
&quot;x1 is a motherboard&quot; is all you want out of a word for<br>
&quot;motherboard&quot;, which means you&#39;re not going to use any of the=
 places<br>
of the 5 gismu you tacked together to make a lujvo for that, so it<br>
shouldn&#39;t be a lujvo.<br>
<br>
When you only expect to need the word for this current conversation,<br>
you can and should (IMO) use cmevla instead. =A0&quot;ry lifri pa la<br>
kyntraktcyn&quot; is (if that&#39;s a legal cmevla) perfectly fine for one<=
br>
conversation; unless we&#39;re starting the Lojban obstetrical<br>
department, who fucking cares?<br>
<br>
Those of you who have known me for a long time, xorxes especially,<br>
will note that this is a significant reversal of my previous stance.<br>
I think it&#39;s about how much time you&#39;ve spent trying to actually<br=
>
spin whole sentences in Lojban in real time; IME most people who<br>
have done a lot of that start to develop a fondness for fu&#39;ivla.<br>
<br>
I also think we, as a community, need to have less of a bug up our<br>
ass about picking the &quot;right&quot; natlang word for fu&#39;ivla. =A0Fi=
rst off,<br>
who cares if there&#39;s a bunch of English-based words floating around?<br=
>
The won&#39;t sound like English after the conversion, and if it bothers<br=
>
you, make your next fu&#39;ivla from german, or swahili. =A0Secondly, why<b=
r>
not do it based on Lojban? =A0Look at a few relevant gismu or lujvo,<br>
and make it sound like them. =A0Avoids the whole problem very<br>
effectively.<br>
<br>
-Robin<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
<a href=3D"http://singinst.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://singinst.org/</a>=
 : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.<br>
Lojban (<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.loj=
ban.org/</a>): The language in which &quot;this parrot<br>
is dead&quot; is &quot;ti poi spitaki cu morsi&quot;, but &quot;this senten=
ce is false&quot;<br>
is &quot;na nei&quot;. =A0 My personal page: <a href=3D"http://www.digitalk=
ingdom.org/rlp/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/</a><b=
r>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
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n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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