Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]:60852) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RLdhF-0005LT-7z; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:55 -0700 Received: by faaq24 with SMTP id q24sf107587faa.16 for ; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=GxRKjiv5YbFG8Ujihm38VGNlf2Nq90HvbztznT34m7M=; b=Vg41uCQ+QHjfzff21Ih0yDaLylf5119aJ0oAxt4GF0tRPE0xt0UaM5B03/3ycfrpW4 3CIayMTTryDXszTdDlzv3shd3uHn2cAqK24Ey654H5JazjBguf7tfvxxVYcZMb6JbNtc TgtBtQQ6zZypMTS5Hz/CPuXYrOYSL+WvGZXD0= Received: by 10.223.87.200 with SMTP id x8mr142309fal.24.1320251379392; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.21.193 with SMTP id k1ls757470fab.2.gmail; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.136 with SMTP id o8mr652176bkw.2.1320251378378; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.136 with SMTP id o8mr652174bkw.2.1320251378345; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h3si1582391fao.3.2011.11.02.09.29.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by mail-fx0-f54.google.com with SMTP id r19so1217419faa.27 for ; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.5.66 with SMTP id 2mr9507526fau.26.1320251377872; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.1.7 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4EB16CAA.5090504@kli.org> References: <20111102071258.GA29201@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <201111020621.37040.phma@phma.optus.nu> <20111102102853.GJ15498@nvg.org> <201111020941.30684.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27720612.352.1320245004574.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqie15> <4EB16CAA.5090504@kli.org> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 10:29:37 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Big baby words list From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747624e64713104b0c2fa58 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --00151747624e64713104b0c2fa58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, we do have jbovlaste, but it's limited by the fact that it requires someone actually putting the word into it. Then again, any other "Academie Lojbanique" would have the same problem. Speaking of- Bad Pierre! Not putting {ipkota} into jbovlaste! For shame! :D On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > On 11/02/2011 10:43 AM, najrut wrote: > >> I'm strongly against manual adding new words. Why don't use some >> algorithm similar to used in scoreGismu ? >> >> chinese =E5=97=9D ge >> hindi Hicak=C4=AB hicak >> english hiccup xikap >> spanish hipo xip >> arabic =D9=81=D9=88=D8=A7=D9=82 [fwaq] fuak >> russian =D0=B8=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C [ikats'] ika >> >> >> All this makes me like type-4 fu'ivla even less. Here I am, bobbing > along, reading my Lojban text. I come across an unfamiliar word. Gee, > whatever could this be? Oh, of course, it's a combination of the Spanish > and Russian. Or it's the native term for something. So all I need to do t= o > understand Lojban is to learn the (effectively a priori) gismu and rafsi, > and be able to recognize ALL THE OTHER LANGUAGES THERE ARE. These fu'ivla > are effectively a priori words like gismu, except that gismu are fixed in > number and have a fixed authoritative list. If everyone randomly makes up > words when they can't be bothered to think of a good lujvo (which is not = to > say that all fu'ivla can be replaced by lujvo, but (a) I think more of th= em > can than is commonly claimed, and (b) even given that I'm wrong about tha= t, > you can bet that there are no few fu'ivla that are/will be invented that > would be better as lujvo), then we get a million non-mutually-intelligibl= e > dialects, not a language at all. And even for fu'ivla that are legitimate= ly > fu'ivla, there will still be arbitrarily many different forms depending o= n > the biases and knowledge of each coiner. > > I think at *least* you should give some sort of heads-up in the form of > prefixed rafsi (type-3 fu'ivla), maybe start to learn to transition from > type-3 to type-4 as it becomes more familiar (make dropping off that rafs= i > for well-known words a "natural" part of colloquial and fluent speech), a= nd > make type-4 fu'ivla only when they are (or will be) more or less > universally recognized. Or at the very least make sure there's a Central > Repository, an Academie Lojbanique, to approve these fu'ivla so at least = I > have someplace to look them up. > > ~mark > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@** > googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/lojban?hl=3Den . > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00151747624e64713104b0c2fa58 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, we do have jbovlaste, but it's limited by the fact that it requir= es someone actually putting the word into it.

Then again, any other = "Academie Lojbanique" would have the same problem.

Speakin= g of- Bad Pierre! Not putting {ipkota} into jbovlaste! For shame! :D

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Mark E. Sho= ulson <mark@kli.org> wrote:
On 11/02/2011 10:43 AM, najrut wrote:
I'm strongly against manual adding new words. Why don't use some al= gorithm similar to used in scoreGismu ?

chinese =E5=97=9D ge
hindi Hicak=C4=AB hicak
english hiccup xikap
spanish hipo xip
arabic =D9=81=D9=88=D8=A7=D9=82 [fwaq] fuak
russian =D0=B8=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C [ikats'] ika


All this makes me like type-4 fu'ivla even less. Here I am, bobbing alo= ng, reading my Lojban text. I come across an unfamiliar word. Gee, whatever= could this be? Oh, of course, it's a combination of the Spanish and Ru= ssian. Or it's the native term for something. So all I need to do to un= derstand Lojban is to learn the (effectively a priori) gismu and rafsi, and= be able to recognize ALL THE OTHER LANGUAGES THERE ARE. These fu'ivla = are effectively a priori words like gismu, except that gismu are fixed in n= umber and have a fixed authoritative list. If everyone randomly makes up wo= rds when they can't be bothered to think of a good lujvo (which is not = to say that all fu'ivla can be replaced by lujvo, but (a) I think more = of them can than is commonly claimed, and (b) even given that I'm wrong= about that, you can bet that there are no few fu'ivla that are/will be= invented that would be better as lujvo), then we get a million non-mutuall= y-intelligible dialects, not a language at all. And even for fu'ivla th= at are legitimately fu'ivla, there will still be arbitrarily many diffe= rent forms depending on the biases and knowledge of each coiner.

I think at *least* you should give some sort of heads-up in the form of pre= fixed rafsi (type-3 fu'ivla), maybe start to learn to transition from t= ype-3 to type-4 as it becomes more familiar (make dropping off that rafsi f= or well-known words a "natural" part of colloquial and fluent spe= ech), and make type-4 fu'ivla only when they are (or will be) more or l= ess universally recognized. Or at the very least make sure there's a Ce= ntral Repository, an Academie Lojbanique, to approve these fu'ivla so a= t least I have someplace to look them up.

~mark


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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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