Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:56306)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC6jsz1BBoEns3wAQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RM4ou-0003Ya-Im; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:47 -0700
Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf1765785gyg.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to
         :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=gYF554Mhoo+m8d3RpHf9AQG7T9eIcRPrmMRNl/goHhg=;
        b=HQNPdzqwHlxj4SW2Dsn3n2uBvr9JijyIG5YqfIJf8Q4sBkNjEc6ET8eKCx6p36tCRT
         D5Y/pfUOoTiuBzd8R+fmT66ZzyCChuU3c94e1ZWDuT+STbjHVFVCh3TEyOGzWo9VzlMD
         8OEfGI2jf8y6nIug+zjmEJIVmMIhbUAjwHDHw=
Received: by 10.236.112.242 with SMTP id y78mr3765974yhg.3.1320355642735;
        Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.101.208.32 with SMTP id k32ls4836833anq.5.gmail; Thu, 03 Nov
 2011 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.185.197 with SMTP id u45mr17219258yhm.6.1320355641160;
        Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.185.197 with SMTP id u45mr17219255yhm.6.1320355641130;
        Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nm29-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm29-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com. [66.94.236.255])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id a27si1858160yhi.2.2011.11.03.14.27.20;
        Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.255 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.255;
Received: from [66.94.237.198] by nm29.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2011 21:27:20 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.101] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2011 21:27:20 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2011 21:27:20 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 790433.11957.bm@omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 39943 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Nov 2011 21:27:20 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: Sn7kqaQVM1mAzkVb6UZTGPQ8B.Go9ZY6YG3gWtxM_m7NQ4T
 xFaxcH.cVdulrsYYmODUnqc2mU.Hk40mtqDehCWySmX0to_pMk0l9NdXrdsP
 6Nlx3gJxbZoA9uZmy.lj6FuOoewj_Oov8ISVMqyQ6aghd6aNIMWb2I.csnbW
 zlWPfB4VInyTAFeRNGwtpx6U3Vra2aZVF.0HWrfvm2WM.OurQ5_hfOMAxAR7
 m3DYoAHfWgSKQxY5Er.2yRa76DOxrWYDiV3YPVPUAkmfOEH.WQ2m8oz_x2Et
 EVgtXy5FPIx1ToynKbY27li8uKX2s3yoAYB1dAvlAh2D2r.F2j.KQ5InqOiE
 RPXpDpSIlKlwX33yV7ECJqMEcwseW7uQLPBpJOhpL_9FI_dl9YYA_TdUQ_lr
 fLTUFrDof2knipoaMIzTf0oxaTHT7IzV4HFgKw8yxCB.3QX9x6UVISzEUED.
 0wPoO964ytbRqbNQbyT.BfawtcO5drwEO.76VkhfnZDaWAPwYdtj9o3OYItO
 TkY0OrXekRLJZ8Gi35E8t8.52YmuyUp9hNxQ..eE-
Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:27:19 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681
References: <17294635.733.1320160412847.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqce21> <15299677.1288.1320305653443.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqnx19> <CALm==BV3kpOfDzh+eo4YxYhC2LGmLFh8J-8CCFjR-mgjdyLUBg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMXsxUFN5xdSMWd_7bMwjuzc1ksRvnY6Sbj4ZJuzSB3+7geLkA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMKwHj2eHP-68uP3EOJ7gtnhT3FQNQSDU3q4LJD6iSNGR8N4FQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMXsxUF8vEindOQRQxtHk_-AqLQ8a5qyHUYrv_XJXaQr75HojA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMKwHj0Vi-ZF4c2vc49gryobbBObQht2nFR7ALFxkTDZa4rZPQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMXsxUGoAqGw1Y0TNoEuxQBrgX_y8DTcu0Q01koux9G2SUye5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320355639.24400.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:27:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new guide that needs guidance
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <CAMXsxUGoAqGw1Y0TNoEuxQBrgX_y8DTcu0Q01koux9G2SUye5A@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.255
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2144897001-1320355639=:24400"
X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++)
X-Spam_score: 2.9
X-Spam_score_int: 29
X-Spam_bar: ++
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has
 identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
 has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 
 Content preview:  "ui" is distinctive in Lojban. "pe" and "be" (and "zed" and
    "theta") are in English. The fact that your language doesn't have the distinctions
    involved may make English -- or Lojban -- a bit harder for you but doesn't
    make them less distinctive in their own languages. So, {ky} and {kybu} are
    quite distinct in Lojban, as distinct as {cy} and {ebu}. Since this is obvious,
    I fear I am missing your point here. [...] 
 
 Content analysis details:   (2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 
  pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
  0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
                             (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com)
  0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED   No valid author signature, adsp_override is
                             CUSTOM_MED
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
  0.0 URIBL_RED              Contains an URL listed in the URIBL redlist
                             [URIs: googlegroups.com]
  1.1 URIBL_GREY             Contains an URL listed in the URIBL greylist
                             [URIs: googlegroups.com]
  1.8 URIBL_BLACK            Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
                             [URIs: googlegroups.com]
  0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
  0.1 DKIM_SIGNED            Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid
 -0.1 DKIM_VALID             Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
  0.0 T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL To: misformatted and free email service

--0-2144897001-1320355639=:24400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

"ui" is distinctive in Lojban. "pe" and "be" (and "zed" and "theta") are in 
English.  The fact that your language doesn't have the distinctions involved may 
make English -- or Lojban -- a bit harder for you but doesn't make them less 
distinctive in their own languages.  So, {ky} and {kybu} are quite distinct in 
Lojban, as distinct as {cy} and {ebu}.  Since this is obvious, I fear I am 
missing your point here.


________________________________
From: M. Nael <muhammad.nael@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 3, 2011 2:57:09 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new guide that needs guidance


The sumti in a bridi, other than the first, can appear either before or after 
the selbri.
>{lo mlatu cu kalte lo cipni lonu kelci}, {lo mlatu lo cipni cu kalte lonu 
>kelci}, and {lo mlatu lo cipni lonu kelci cu kalte} are all the same bridi. The 
>convention is for only the first to be before the selbri, likely because the 
>sooner the listener hears the selbri, the sooner he knows what the sumti 
>relations are.
>{lo mlatu lo cipni lonu kelci cu klama} is a completely different bridi, but no 
>one listening would know that until the very last word is said.
That settles the SOV part...
 
 I don't know what you mean by distinctive. Each name is associated with exactly 
one thing. .uibu, for example, is the name of ":)". You can't use .uibu to refer 
to anything else.
"uibu" is distinctive enough because 'ui' is distinctive... but I 
can't distinguish py. and by. Ignoring any technicalities; no aspiration or 
anything else. In English (Bi) and (Pi) are difficult to tell apart, while in 
Arabic (Zey=z) as a letter can't be mistaken for (Dhal=th in then).
_OFF
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--0-2144897001-1320355639=:24400
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon=
t-size:12pt"><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, se=
rif;font-size:12pt">"ui" is distinctive in Lojban. "pe" and "be" (and "zed"=
 and "theta") are in English.&nbsp; The fact that your language doesn't hav=
e the distinctions involved may make English -- or Lojban -- a bit harder f=
or you but doesn't make them less distinctive in their own languages.&nbsp;=
 So, {ky} and {kybu} are quite distinct in Lojban, as distinct as {cy} and =
{ebu}.&nbsp; Since this is obvious, I fear I am missing your point here.<br=
><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-siz=
e:12pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> M. Nael &lt;muhammad.nael@gmail.com&gt;=
<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
 lojban@googlegroups.com<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</sp=
an></b> Thu, November 3, 2011 2:57:09 PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Re: A new guide that needs guidance=
<br></font><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;=
margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;=
border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1=
ex;">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family=
:arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;">The sumti in a bridi, other than the fi=
rst, can appear either before or after the selbri.<br>
</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font=
-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;">{lo mlatu cu kalte lo cipni lonu=
 kelci}, {lo mlatu lo cipni cu kalte lonu kelci}, and {lo mlatu lo cipni lo=
nu kelci cu kalte} are all the same bridi. The convention is for only the f=
irst to be before the selbri, likely because the sooner the listener hears =
the selbri, the sooner he knows what the sumti relations are.<br>
</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font=
-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;">{lo mlatu lo cipni lonu kelci cu=
 klama} is a completely different bridi, but no one listening would know th=
at until the very last word is said.</span></blockquote>
<div>That settles the SOV part...</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 20=
4);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;">
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-=
family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;">I don't know what you mean by dis=
tinctive. Each name is associated with exactly one thing. .uibu, for exampl=
e, is the name of ":)". You can't use .uibu to refer to anything else.</spa=
n></blockquote>
<div>"uibu" is distinctive enough because 'ui' is distinctive... but I can'=
t&nbsp;distinguish&nbsp;py. and by. Ignoring any&nbsp;technicalities; no as=
piration or anything else. In English (Bi) and (Pi) are difficult to tell a=
part, while in Arabic (Zey=3Dz) as a letter can't be mistaken for (Dhal=3Dt=
h in then).</div>
<div>_OFF</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br><span>

For more options, visit this group at <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://g=
roups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.</span><br>


</div></div>



</div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--0-2144897001-1320355639=:24400--