Received: from mail-bw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.214.61]:43609)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCuqNX1BBoE8YFFXA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RMi2i-0008Qk-Mk; Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:25 -0700
Received: by bkat2 with SMTP id t2sf3303697bka.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=RGzPp6qWrhEF5/PqUudK3hALVx7tg01K3E9dRmYXHas=;
        b=GmiZGA1KV6UPL6OBYuAIlffsqyyz86mmdljp4+To3VZ6OKH1gJQ8jkXyxinl+YmZIB
         iXs09nGTKxSTFlzSUPnlDzkdlkN6/+9eLJarKecYxbI4b5WuDa4cp98jnCMlNezWoG0x
         +E5O7rK38w0fdEjRtcEWM9if8hu6lroT/gkgo=
Received: by 10.205.132.80 with SMTP id ht16mr1141982bkc.1.1320506414080;
        Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.33.136 with SMTP id h8ls8618650bkd.0.gmail; Sat, 05 Nov
 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.151.81 with SMTP id b17mr2220765bkw.3.1320506412370;
        Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.151.81 with SMTP id b17mr2220764bkw.3.1320506412355;
        Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-fx0-f46.google.com (mail-fx0-f46.google.com [209.85.161.46])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f1si6624471fae.1.2011.11.05.08.20.12
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.46;
Received: by mail-fx0-f46.google.com with SMTP id o14so4925522faa.5
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.152.106.130 with SMTP id gu2mr2954285lab.37.1320506412211;
 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.152.19.198 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <4EB4A457.7040208@gmail.com>
References: <4EA68224.1080406@gmail.com>
	<20111026033114.GB3119@gonzales>
	<4EA7BF06.5050103@gmail.com>
	<4EAA8AC9.2010000@gmail.com>
	<20111029001437.GA5535@gonzales>
	<4EAC2461.4040307@gmail.com>
	<20111029172822.GC9385@gonzales>
	<4EAC5B24.4000604@gmail.com>
	<20111103234955.GA3758@gonzales>
	<4EB43035.6040407@gmail.com>
	<20111104233756.GB24058@gonzales>
	<CAO7tK2dzo0vjzQLwQObDo3GnOrjvEEE6_6K1wb0+a=On-H_gzw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EB4A457.7040208@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:20:12 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2dyOL55MEN-Hugd_AnSNpOMMDty=o74v=Chs=8b8xKxTA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 11:49 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 05/11/2011 01:51:
>>
>> The whole point of xorlo was to get away from the idea that "lo
>> ransedyta'u" was equivalent to "su'o ransedyta'u".
>
> They're different because su'o is scope-sensitive and lo isn't, but I see=
 no
> difference between {PA ransedyta'u cu se dasni ro faspre} and {ro faspre =
cu
> dasni lo PA ransedyta'u} (where PA is {pa} in each or {su'o} in each).

For me an outer PA immediately suggests a non-singleton domain, which
"lo pa" explicitly contradicts, so getting "pa ransedyta'u cu se dasni
ro faspre" and "ro faspre cu dasni lo pa ransedyta'u" to give me the
same picture takes some effort.

If the question is "can you imagine a domain where both of these
sentences are true?", then yes, I can imagine such a domain. But is
that the domain that each of the sentences calls for on its own? No,
it's not.

> Of
> course, if you stuck {na ku} in front, they'd become nonequivalent again,
> because that would trigger the scope-sensitivity of PA.

In the domain in which both are true, sticking a "na ku" in front
would make them both false, so why would they become nonequivalent?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.