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Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:39:09 -0400
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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* Saturday, 2011-11-05 at 18:34 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.=
com>:

> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > * Saturday, 2011-11-05 at 14:03 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gm=
ail.com>:
> >
> >>  My first choice would be to use the same individuation
> >> criteria for both "xabju" and "na'e xabju", since they are almost the
> >> same predicate.
> >
> > OK. Presumably if I kept modifying {xabju} and {na'e xabju}, we'd
> > eventually find a sentence where you consider the two readings to be
> > approximately equally plausible.
> >
> > I know I've asked such questions before, but please allow me to do it
> > again: how would you make it clear that you meant to use the same
> > individuation criteria here?
>=20
> Maybe use the very same predicate: "ro prenu poi xabju", "su'o prenu
> poi na'e xabju".

Interesting.

> >Or in the beret example, how would you
> > express the surprising claim that all french people really do all wear
> > the same individual mundane non-kind hat?
>=20
> I don't know, use whatever predicate ends up being used to mean
> "particular individual". Maybe "kantu":
> "su'o mapku kantu cu se dasni ro faspre"?

Is a Blobist allowed to consider quanta? Sounds like heresy to me!

But I have to ask the same question you asked me when I suggested
{dacti} for this: why couldn't that be interpreted as a *kind* of
hat-quantum? And if it can, isn't a beret-quantum a kind of hat-quantum?

> >> But we are not talking about any logical deductions here.
> >
> > No, just lojbanic deductions. It distresses me that these concepts
> > should be so different!
>=20
> But how could it be otherwise? In most contexts the kind of deductions
> that you can make within a given discourse without using knowledge
> external to the discourse itself is extremely limited.

But normally you can consider that knowledge as giving you further
information about the domain, such that things which were true before
(like {ro mapku cu na klesi}) are still true.

Martin

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