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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:38:33 -0800 (PST)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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persnickety,



----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 6, 2011 3:11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural=
=20
variable

* Sunday, 2011-11-06 at 17:15 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.co=
m>:

> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > * Sunday, 2011-11-06 at 12:56 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai=
l.com>:
> >> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:31 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> >> That says something quite different though. It doesn't even preclude
> >> the possibility that every ranmapku is bolmapku as long as there is
> >> one bolmapku that is not ranmapku.
> >
> > Does ficysi'u?
>=20
> Hmm... I think so, yes.
>=20
> If you are quantifying over mundane hats, then saying that at least
> one of them is either a beret or a bowler but not both is not much
> like saying that berets and bowler hats are different kinds of hats. I
> think you would need to say that everything is either a beret, a
> bowler, or neither. (And the double exclusive or is hard!)

Hmm? Why not just {no da ranmapku gi'e bolmapku}?

> And even so, mere set disjointness doesn't seem to get at the heart of
> the matter, which is probably in the x3 of klesi:
>=20
> "lo ranmapku jo'u lo bolmapku cu ficysi'u lo ka ce'u klesi lo mapku ma ka=
u"

Yes, good. So I'd want to add three characters:
{lo ranmaplei jo'u lo bolmaplei cu ficysi'u lo ka ce'u klesi lo maplei ma k=
au}

> >> Why is beret - hat - garment artificial?
> > But they're all on the same level, no?
> As kinds? A beret is a kind of hat, and a hat is a kind of garment.

I'm only seeing two levels there - one containing berets and hats, and
one containing kinds of hat and kinds of garment.

> > It's true that it isn't clear what a valsi is. I do believe that this
> > should be clarified. My take would be that a valsi is an abstract
> > entity, as are jufras and selskus; that {zo mupli} has a single
> > referent, like (qkauless) {lo ka broda}; and that what these pixels
> > glowing on your monitor are doing is sinxaing valsis. The valsis
> > themselves may sinxa concepts, and we can skip a level and say that the
> > pixels sinxa the concepts.
> >
> > I suppose you would have the pixel-valsis sinxaing the abstract-valsis,
> > but also valsiing whatever it is the abstract-valsis valsi?
>=20
> I would want to say "mi kancu lo valsi poi dei vasru ku'o li pa pa".

Well, I would probably be pernickety and demand {valsi nunsku} in place
of {valsi}.

This does not give you licence to call me pernickety when I demand
{mapku klesi} ;)

Martin

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