Received: from mail-iy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:36353)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCK30vq5WEKSQ3vUEGgTXw-1-@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RNJbI-00087b-Vx; Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:44 -0800
Received: by iage36 with SMTP id e36sf9607210iag.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:30 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id
         :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent
         :sender:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=LGZjRKRJ3cPIzRh9HLoWHp0WGnzR//Fj6mD8VBvcpEg=;
        b=kxa6nwXpsl5k1XmSM/ksNNxF8fm6nit23faQmLHlTyLMzMYQVOj84EVUQdwNa1hwQN
         Vy5nGWAdAdw9tLJp3CYH0Ied3TYKkzp/aDn+3uqJzhV59r4ZL0hjLCXlJdIXq+ZnMnwm
         gooLT6P9AS9E6B452iv6BKGS43ntFpfqzqFl0=
Received: by 10.50.6.200 with SMTP id d8mr2996285iga.0.1320650788297;
        Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:28 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.231.123.88 with SMTP id o24ls489898ibr.3.gmail; Sun, 06 Nov
 2011 23:26:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.42.146.3 with SMTP id h3mr12258821icv.2.1320650787483;
        Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.42.146.3 with SMTP id h3mr12258820icv.2.1320650787472;
        Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from stodi.digitalkingdom.org (mail.digitalkingdom.org. [173.13.139.236])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l5si15281342pbe.2.2011.11.06.23.26.27
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:27 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rlpowell@stodi.digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.236;
Received: from rlpowell by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <rlpowell@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>)
	id 1RNJb8-00087X-76
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:26:26 -0800
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:26:26 -0800
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, but general relevance: dai-like cmavo
Message-ID: <20111107072625.GH21492@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
References: <20111105115950.GJ8607@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CAO7tK2dD1Q+RwPYQ3jNwoatL+hiv_-Wd5vpwYHFPLM-N6GSZvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111106054708.GU8607@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CAO7tK2eNFk+g-cLgfj3usUGkNrQAVQraqzGot1qOmJKVHsdptg@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2eNFk+g-cLgfj3usUGkNrQAVQraqzGot1qOmJKVHsdptg@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of rlpowell@stodi.digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

On Sun, Nov 06, 2011 at 11:47:01AM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 2:47 AM, Robin Lee Powell
> <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 02:23:04PM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Robin Lee Powell
> >> <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> >> >
>=20
> >> > Similarily, I also want {.oi [I see that you are feeling
> >> > this; I'm not myself, but I observe it in you]}. =A0Which,
> >> > again, {za'a do dunku}, but when I'm in the flow speaking
> >> > Lojban, I want a UI for it.
> >>
> >> It is fine to just say ".oi" there. You are not saying it *to*
> >> the baby, you are saying it *with* her.
> >
> > I'm sorry, I don't buy that at all.
> >
> >> It works even better if you don't use your own normal voice but
> >> a baby-like voice imitation. Remember that the referent of "mi"
> >> can be more subtle than just your own old self.
> >
> > {mi} isn't relevant here, IMO;
>=20
> Forget I mentioned "mi" then. Whenever you say something, you may
> be lending your voice to speak in the name of a group.

(1)  I don't think that applies to UI

(2) Even if it did, it wouldn't help; if I'm not hurting, my saying
{.oi} is a lie, whether it's as a group or not.

> > UI are for directly expressing the emotions of the actual
> > immediate speaker, regardless of what {mi} is bound to.
> > =A0Anything else is ... confusing, at the very least.
>=20
> And yet that's how language seems to work. How would you say
> "ouch!" to your baby under the same conditions, if you were
> speaking in English rather than in Lojban?

I don't think I ever would?  I mean, maybe I'm failing to put myself
in the situation properly, but I can't imagine doing that.  I'd say
"Poor dear!" or "You got an owie." or ... actually, yeah, I can
imagine saying "Ouch! I bet that hurts!", but the "Ouch!" would be
{.oi dai}; I would be empathetically experiencing the pain
(something I'm very good at).  It wouldn't be a simple
acknowledgement of her experience, which is what I was aksing about.

> >=A0If someone says {.ui} and I don't know if they are happy or if
> >some random person around them is happy, the usefullness of UI
> >has basically been totally destroyed as far as I can see.
>=20
> We don't usually see people expressing the feelings of random
> people around them, so we probably don't need to worry about that.

IMO, that's what you just proposed.

-Robin

--=20
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.