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From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
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Why is there only one level in Ready-Made?  I suspect that this is a straw =
man=20
you have set up, but the characterization of it -- and of blobular -- are s=
o=20
vague as to make a clear judgement difficult.  I suspect that the only prob=
lem=20
with levels is just that {lo broda cu klesi lo broda} shouldn't hold.  Or t=
hat,=20
in the same context, {broda} is used sometimes for avatars (exemplars, slic=
es,=20
ordinary things) and sometimes for kinds/masses/properties.  MB seems to be=
=20
saying that you do do this, but his evidence is somewhat confusing itself (=
using=20
quantifiers inappropriately, for example), so I am not sure you do (or don'=
t,=20
for that matter).  I do think, however, that there are limits as to how far=
 up=20
or don you can shove a predicate without some indication of the shove, but =
I am=20
less sure what those limits are (using {cinfo} for what would normally be {=
ka=20
cinfo}, something about functions from worlds to sets, for example, seems t=
o far=20
up, using it for muscle fiber from a lion's leg muscle seems too far down -=
- but=20
I am open to arguments either way).



----- Original Message ----
From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 5, 2011 1:18:54 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural=
=20
variable

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>
> To reiterate the point: allowing cinfo to be ambiguous between levels
> is, by the definition of 'level', effectively equivalent to allowing the
> logical structure of sentences which involve quantifying over cinfo to
> be ambiguous.

No, that's not true. Just because "ro broda cu brode" can have
different meanings in different contexts does not mean that there is
anything ambiguous about its logical structure. Its logical structure
has nothing to do with the meaning of "broda" or of "brode". All the
logical structure tells us is that any thing from the domain of
discourse that satisfies the predicate broda, also satisfies the
predicate brode. It tells us nothing about what things are in the
domain of discourse or about what things satisfy broda or about what
things satisfy brode.

> So where does this leave Blobularism? I fear it leaves it needing to
> find a way to specify the levels its carving the Blob to. Sorry.

There are some level-mixing predicates. The ones that come to mind are
"klesi", "krefu" and "rapli". The x1 of klesi is at a lower level than
the x2. The x1 of krefu is at a lower level than the x2. In the case
of rapli, there is only one level for its arguments, but x2 counts
things that are at a lower level than x1. I wonder how you handle
these predicates in Ready-Made. Presumably in Ready-Made there is only
one level of events, so what does it mean for an event to rapli any
number other than one?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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