Received: from mail-bw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.214.61]:40525) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RNSBZ-0007BA-2f; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:42 -0800 Received: by bkat2 with SMTP id t2sf4647899bka.16 for ; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ucZCY3/UpWJAKiyewWNutpZCGkX4n2GiDyq3nrvqpLc=; b=bZ5JwvJQv3m1MrOe62iA3u5duVPrzt7P4GzKr466Za8FWH7FGVdkXO+QIW7tJdGIiS ifCUT5biXWmWPPfwGjP1Q98hByjzSNV3CbjBlLmfXkZ3Psq2phjKENUqKRXbmJiDIKlV HTFwHDYqjUGEEHHYglSCAZRLS6FCeIoVcwckw= Received: by 10.204.34.150 with SMTP id l22mr1993074bkd.19.1320683787045; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.47.205 with SMTP id t53ls163631eeb.4.canary; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.19.9 with SMTP id m9mr1389663eem.8.1320683785677; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.19.9 with SMTP id m9mr1389662eem.8.1320683785637; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f178.google.com (mail-ey0-f178.google.com [209.85.215.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d10si11252386eed.3.2011.11.07.08.36.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.178; Received: by mail-ey0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 13so3882936eye.37 for ; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.20.11 with SMTP id o11mr1897133eeo.137.1320683785387; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.97.77 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1320681459.44222.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201111062057.24471.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4EB73D68.8090506@gmail.com> <201111062230.31412.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4EB7526A.2070508@gmail.com> <1320681459.44222.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:36:25 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] gender From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Fr=F6jd?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d58f85e37f8504b127a74f X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --0016e6d58f85e37f8504b127a74f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But just because gender is a complex concept, I don't think you can ignore it. I'm studying sociology, so I use the word gender a lot in different discourses. First I was surprised that gender doesn't have a gismu. How can you even discuss gender issues without a word for it? How do you say "I'm studying gender science" in lojban? Or "He has no right to oppress me just because we have different sex/gender"? /jongausib 2011/11/7 John E Clifford > Gloryoski! Why should Lojban be able to sort out things that the experts > in the field can't yet get straight? Grammatical gender is defined by > concordance and has, in a few languages, some more than casual relation t= o > some physical features of the referents. Other languages have derivation= al > devices (other than concordance) to signal (somewhat more regularly) such > physical features (along with others, e.g., size, age). Still others > basically don't notice. As for the features involved, the range is > enormous. And when you throw in genetic data or cultural norms or intern= al > intentions, you pass well beyond what languages manage to deal with > comfortably (or even uncomfortably). > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sebastian Fr=F6jd > *To:* "lojban@googlegroups.com" > *Sent:* Mon, November 7, 2011 6:11:47 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] gender > > I like the word tarbykansa. So twins would be reltarbykansa or remei > tarbykansa? > > Den m=E5ndagen den 7:e november 2011 skrev Sebastian Fr=F6jd< > so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>: > > Well, it seems a bit far-fetched, but on a very abstract level perhaps > you may experience some sort of gendered-grammatical-sexual tense between > masculine and feminine (and neutral) words. O maybe you can use > zilselgencinse: ? > > c1=3Dg1 [word/object] exhibits grammatical defined gender/(sexual > orientation/sexuality) c3 (ka) in language/standard c4/g2 for > structure/text g3 > > > > /jongausib > > > > 2011/11/7 vitci'i > >> > >> On 11/06/2011 09:30 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >> > On Sunday 06 November 2011 21:07:36 vitci'i wrote: > >> >> On 11/06/2011 07:57 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >> >>> Yes, but what does x2 of "gencinse" mean? > >> >> > >> >> Where did "gencinse" come from? > >> > > >> > Most Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic languages have it. I guess "x1 i= s > a word > >> > of gender x3", but what sexual (or gendered) activities does a word > partake > >> > in? > >> > > >> > >> Just to clarify: when I asked where it came from, I meant how it enter= ed > >> into the conversation, not what its etymology was. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d58f85e37f8504b127a74f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But just because gender is a complex concept, I don't think you can ign= ore it.
I'm studying sociology, so I use the word gender a lot in di= fferent discourses. First I was surprised that gender doesn't have a gi= smu.
How can you even discuss gender issues without a word for it?
How do you= say "I'm studying gender science" in lojban? Or "He has= no right to oppress me just because we have different sex/gender"? /jongausib

2011/11/7 John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.= com>
Gloryoski!=A0 Why should Lojban be able to sort out things tha= t the experts in the field can't yet get straight?=A0 Grammatical gende= r is defined by concordance and has, in a few languages, some more than cas= ual relation to some physical features of the referents.=A0 Other languages= have derivational devices (other than concordance) to signal (somewhat mor= e regularly) such physical features (along with others, e.g., size, age). S= till others basically don't notice.=A0 As for the features involved, th= e range is enormous.=A0 And when you throw in genetic data or cultural norm= s or internal intentions, you pass well beyond what languages manage to dea= l with comfortably (or even uncomfortably).



From: Sebastian Fr=F6jd &l= t;so.cool.ogi@gm= ail.com>
To: &qu= ot;lojban@goog= legroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, November 7, 201= 1 6:11:47 AM
Subject: R= e: [lojban] gender

I like the word tarbykansa. So twins would be reltarbykansa or remei tarbyk= ansa?

Den m=E5ndagen den 7:e november 2011 skrev Sebastian Fr=F6jd&l= t;so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>:
> Well, it seems a bit far-fetched, but on a very abstract level perhaps= you may experience some sort of gendered-grammatical-sexual tense between = masculine and feminine (and neutral) words. O maybe you can use zilselgenci= nse: ?
> c1=3Dg1 [word/object] exhibits grammatical defined gender/(sexual orie= ntation/sexuality) c3 (ka) in language/standard c4/g2 for structure/text g3=
>
> /jongausib
>
> 2011/11/7 vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 11/06/2011 09:30 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>>= ; > On Sunday 06 November 2011 21:07:36 vitci'i wrote:
>> &= gt;> On 11/06/2011 07:57 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>> >>>= ; Yes, but what does x2 of "gencinse" mean?
>> >>
>> >> Where did "gencinse" come = from?
>> >
>> > Most Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic= languages have it. I guess "x1 is a word
>> > of gender x= 3", but what sexual (or gendered) activities does a word partake
>> > in?
>> >
>>
>> Just to clarify:= when I asked where it came from, I meant how it entered
>> into t= he conversation, not what its etymology was.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send e= mail to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to loj= ban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, v= isit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>

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