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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 07:50:32 +0100
Message-ID: <CAKv2tT4oYOhiXaFQnU0v0Ki-EpDkQ1htQQhJtjhdyqo4XXkEQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] gender
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I totally agree with John! So then back to lojban. Do you agree that it's
reasonable to use terganti for biological sex (also your official sex,
registered at the authorities) and tercinse for social constructed and/or
self-identified/performative sexuality/gender? Grammatical gender is
apparently just a special case of word classification and should presumably
use something else than zilselgencinse or similar.

Even if there are more factors than your gametes (shape of external
genitalia, presence of ovary (also ganti), hormones) which define your
biological sex, usually ganti is what governs those other factors, so
that's why I think terganti is a good choice here.
When it comes to tercinse I like the concept that sexual orientation and
gender is mixed together and left vague. If you need to specify exactly
what you mean you can do it with tanru or lujvo.
/jongausib

2011/11/8 John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com
>

> Well, at least we have gotten grammar out.  The remaining notions of
> gender and
> sex (and whatever other terms have come along to sort these out a  bit) are
> separate enough (though the terminology is not standardized yet) to start
> getting away from the confusions that working with one or two terms raise.
>  To
> be sure, for most people most of these notions run more or less together,
> but
> for a significant number they do not and it would seem ti desirab;e thing
> to
> sort them out eventually and not continue lumping them together into that
> couple
> of terms and their compounds (which often are based on rather disparaging
> notions, alas).
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, November 7, 2011 2:55:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] gender
>
> On 11/07/2011 02:29 PM, John E. Clifford wrote:
> > But fosters the notion that these various concepts are somehow related
> beyond
> >the accidents of English vocabulary.
>
> But sociologically assigned gender, biological sex at birth, biological
> sex constructed by surgery, personal identification, etc. *are*
> entangled -- not identical, but not easily separable either, and if
> nothing else then at least moderately-strongly correlated.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
>

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I totally agree with John! So then back to lojban. Do you agree that it&#39=
;s reasonable to use terganti for biological sex (also your official sex, r=
egistered at the authorities) and tercinse for social constructed and/or se=
lf-identified/performative sexuality/gender? Grammatical gender is apparent=
ly just a special case of word classification and should presumably use som=
ething else than zilselgencinse or similar.<br>
<br>Even if there are more factors than your gametes (shape of external gen=
italia, presence of ovary (also ganti), hormones) which define your biologi=
cal sex, usually ganti is what governs those other factors, so that&#39;s w=
hy I think terganti is a good choice here.<br>
When it comes to tercinse I like the concept that sexual orientation and ge=
nder is mixed together and left vague. If you need to specify exactly what =
you mean you can do it with tanru or lujvo.<br>/jongausib<br><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
2011/11/8 John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putr=
a@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a></span><br>
<span dir=3D"ltr">&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">Well, at least we have gotten grammar out. =A0The remaining=
 notions of gender and<br>

sex (and whatever other terms have come along to sort these out a =A0bit) a=
re<br>
separate enough (though the terminology is not standardized yet) to start<b=
r>
getting away from the confusions that working with one or two terms raise. =
=A0To<br>
be sure, for most people most of these notions run more or less together, b=
ut<br>
for a significant number they do not and it would seem ti desirab;e thing t=
o<br>
sort them out eventually and not continue lumping them together into that c=
ouple<br>
of terms and their compounds (which often are based on rather disparaging<b=
r>
notions, alas).<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----<br>
From: vitci&#39;i &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:celestialcognition@gmail.com">celes=
tialcognition@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a><=
br>
Sent: Mon, November 7, 2011 2:55:10 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [lojban] gender<br>
<br>
On 11/07/2011 02:29 PM, John E. Clifford wrote:<br>
&gt; But fosters the notion that these various concepts are somehow related=
 beyond<br>
&gt;the accidents of English vocabulary.<br>
<br>
But sociologically assigned gender, biological sex at birth, biological<br>
sex constructed by surgery, personal identification, etc. *are*<br>
entangled -- not identical, but not easily separable either, and if<br>
nothing else then at least moderately-strongly correlated.<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups<b=
r>
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<a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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