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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:32:13 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] babies: "you might as well sleep"
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 06, 2011 at 04:40:30PM +0000, tijlan wrote:
> > On 6 November 2011 05:36, Robin Lee Powell
> > <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 11:05:58AM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> > >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Robin Lee Powell
> > >> <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > >> > On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:37:29AM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "might as well" means "have no reason not to", so you could
> > >> >> say ".ei no da fanta lo nu do sipna".
> > >> >
> > >> > What's the {.ei} there for?
> > >>
> > >> Just to make it a little less presumptuous: "there ought to be
> > >> nothing preventing you from sleeping" instead of a plain
> > >> "nothing prevents you from sleeping". You could leave it out
> > >> too.
> > >
> > > Huh.  That's not what I think {.ei} means at all.  I read that
> > > as "I, the speaker, am feeling obligated/constrained about
> > > something having to do with nothing preventing you from
> > > sleeping".  I don't get your use there at all.
> >
> > The personal feeling that there is an obligation can be
> > independent of how the goal is to be achieved. For example, I
> > could be feeling that a broken public bridge in my town ought to
> > be repaired but not that the repairer ought to be me myself. {.ei
> > cikre lo cripu} wouldn't necessarily mean that the speaker is
> > feeling personally obligated to do anything for the bridge
>
> I *strongly* disagree.  The whole *point* of UI is that they express
> immediate emotions *of the speaker*.  See
> http://dag.github.com/cll/13/3/
>
> > any more than that {cikre lo cripu} just ought to be brought about
> > by whatever agent.
>
> UI are not propositions.
>
>   I agree, but xorxes has long used the eY series of UI in an
idiosyncratic way.  On a completely different topic, his second sentence,
"i so'i
so'i da cnino noi mi pa roi ganse cu sruri mi doi tolcitno nanmu" doesn't
parse.  Now, given that a less-than-one-month old is presumably saying it,
it's pretty darn good lojban, but you can't put a NOI on a selbri, despite
my saying that you should be able to.  Was "da" simply a mistaken inclusion=
?
        --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at =
2:52 AM, Robin Lee Powell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@=
digitalkingdom.org">rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">On Sun, Nov 06, 2011 at 04:40:30PM +0000,=
 tijlan wrote:<br>
&gt; On 6 November 2011 05:36, Robin Lee Powell<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org">rlpowell@digitalkin=
gdom.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 11:05:58AM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Robin Lee Powell<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org">rlpowell@d=
igitalkingdom.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:37:29AM -0300, Jorge Llamb=ED=
as<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;might as well&quot; means &quot;have no reason=
 not to&quot;, so you could<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; say &quot;.ei no da fanta lo nu do sipna&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; What&#39;s the {.ei} there for?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Just to make it a little less presumptuous: &quot;there ought=
 to be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; nothing preventing you from sleeping&quot; instead of a plain=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;nothing prevents you from sleeping&quot;. You could lea=
ve it out<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; too.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Huh. =A0That&#39;s not what I think {.ei} means at all. =A0I read=
 that<br>
&gt; &gt; as &quot;I, the speaker, am feeling obligated/constrained about<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; something having to do with nothing preventing you from<br>
&gt; &gt; sleeping&quot;. =A0I don&#39;t get your use there at all.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The personal feeling that there is an obligation can be<br>
&gt; independent of how the goal is to be achieved. For example, I<br>
&gt; could be feeling that a broken public bridge in my town ought to<br>
&gt; be repaired but not that the repairer ought to be me myself. {.ei<br>
&gt; cikre lo cripu} wouldn&#39;t necessarily mean that the speaker is<br>
&gt; feeling personally obligated to do anything for the bridge<br>
<br>
</div></div>I *strongly* disagree. =A0The whole *point* of UI is that they =
express<br>
immediate emotions *of the speaker*. =A0See<br>
<a href=3D"http://dag.github.com/cll/13/3/" target=3D"_blank">http://dag.gi=
thub.com/cll/13/3/</a><br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; any more than that {cikre lo cripu} just ought to be brought about<br>
&gt; by whatever agent.<br>
<br>
</div>UI are not propositions.<br><br></blockquote><div>=A0 I agree, but xo=
rxes has long used the eY series of UI in an idiosyncratic way.=A0 On a com=
pletely different topic, his second sentence, &quot;i so&#39;i<br>
so&#39;i da cnino noi mi pa roi ganse cu sruri mi doi tolcitno nanmu&quot; =
doesn&#39;t parse.=A0 Now, given that a less-than-one-month old is presumab=
ly saying it, it&#39;s pretty darn good lojban, but you can&#39;t put a NOI=
 on a selbri, despite my saying that you should be able to.=A0 Was &quot;da=
&quot; simply a mistaken inclusion?<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa<br><br> </div></div></div>

<p></p>

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