On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@g= mail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Robin Lee Powell
<<= a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org">rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> Well, {dai nai} isn't currently defined at all. = =A0Since the default
> is that you're expressing your own emotions (as I've said else= where,
> I feel strongly that that's the *only* valid use of bare= UI), I'd
> rather use {dai nai} for something useful.

Both interpretations make sense to me, and both are useful (and work<= br>precisely the same way except for exchanging the meanings of dai and
= nai dai nai). For any given UI there are four variants of UI dai
availab= le: UI dai, UI nai dai, UI dai nai, UI nai dai nai. Obviously
UI dai and UI nai dai say the same thing about opposite emotions, and
UI= dai nai and UI nai dai nai do as well. There are also four meanings
for= them to cover: we both feel UI (UI dai), we both feel anti-UI (UI
nai d= ai), I'm pretty sure you feel UI but I don't (UI dai nai proposal #1) =3D I alone feel not-UI (UI nai dai nai proposal #2), and I alone
fe= el UI (UI dai nai proposal #2) =3D I'm pretty sure you feel not-UI,
= but I don't (UI nai dai nai proposal #1). Proposal 2 would also mean the fact that a bare UI is dai-neutral is more relevant.

I see no co= mpelling argument for one over the other, but do think
there's a sli= ght reason to prefer the first interpretation: I think
we're going t= o say "you probably feel UI about that" a lot more than
"I don't care how you feel about it, but I'm pretty UI" f= or reasons of
pragmatics (though both will certainly have their uses). S= ince the UI
are aligned such that people tend to use the positive form m= ore often,
UI dai nai should be the one that says something more common about our
f= eeling of UIness. That's a vote for proposal 1, where UI dai nai
mea= ns "I don't share your UI, but you probably feel UI."

=A0- mi'e .kreig.

=A0

=A0 My two cents -- As a father of five, I quite definitely can/have s= aid "ooh" or "ouch" when my kid feels something (and so= yes, I think you can do that in lojban also, if you are hurting because th= ey hurt).=A0 And to ME, "dai" does not imply "..and I feel i= t, too" but simply what you have first said, "you [or whoever is = the subject] feels this" (i.e. sympathy, rather than empathy) ("o= idai" =3D "that must have hurt!").=A0 On the other hand, no = one mentioned se'i/se'inai, which I think IS the right way to descr= ibe the sense that you are feeling something because someone else has exper= ienced something "oi se'inai" ("Ow!=A0 That fall you too= k hurt me")

=A0

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejy= spa

=A0