Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:35269)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCP2YlPCQHRC-uPn1BBoEzob-Tg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RPC1I-0003Ii-Iq; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:19 -0800
Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf3511430wwf.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:04 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=zYHbqUi4ybu/rAhSyh7iFzMwCXovrwMWf2H+AtPib18=;
        b=P8oSSsin6rs1mLBmuPPex/KLICYac5LWSLk4isv85mUKzn7oSuIXJTOrZxzXpuaHBc
         PFA1KJQjdjwOBrqCqSeZVmrbQXVmVyJM0LwpmijhM+4efm1lgW951TRiEWYgT/px4DEF
         d+2LTiJlYN0/e+sGvY4tJx3uTyvrdnA+COh3w=
Received: by 10.216.135.160 with SMTP id u32mr541097wei.38.1321098302168;
        Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:02 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.216.226.146 with SMTP id b18ls1915751weq.1.gmail; Sat, 12 Nov
 2011 03:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.216.173.73 with SMTP id u51mr67804wel.0.1321098301293;
        Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.216.173.73 with SMTP id u51mr67803wel.0.1321098301257;
        Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id es13si7777275wbb.3.2011.11.12.03.45.01
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of cntrational@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44;
Received: by wwe5 with SMTP id 5so1894918wwe.25
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.180.102.4 with SMTP id fk4mr18195361wib.15.1321098301030; Sat,
 12 Nov 2011 03:45:01 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.180.79.202 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 03:44:20 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAEimHHDMNk6mvyv5Z=5rjz-_kYHPw+NqjCTXERoDYyhYBuzA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEimHHARGsOvz8SHva9eVah6-A1M6ZFka+U1dx9buqvDM+LmFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKwHj1TyPH6P-9k=9ZtD+MdRjz69W+qfCWPi9=bdCxBdA6USQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAEimHHDMNk6mvyv5Z=5rjz-_kYHPw+NqjCTXERoDYyhYBuzA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Sid <cntrational@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:14:20 +0530
Message-ID: <CANc60thoFZefeF7QDEFSjHW1bAWqFDYLAvrJ3UiaiEHQrsS1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] pronunciation and "x"
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: cntrational@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of cntrational@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=cntrational@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

It's pronounced with your tongue in the back of your mouth like a [k]
-- then you just blow air instead of releasing it all at once.
(Similar to the difference between [s] and [t].)

On 11 November 2011 02:16, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> ahhh good call. =A0I've spent quite a bit of time googling for an english
> example of "x" but never could find one. =A0Ble'ch' sounds like a pretty =
nice
> approximation.
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Assuming you pronounce the "ch" in "Blech" the way I'm hearing it my hea=
d,
>> that's exactly how I pronounce {xy.}. (Which is also how I pronounce the
>> "ch" in Loch, BTW.)
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Ian
>>> Johnson=A0<blindbravado@gmail.com>=A0wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can say {citmle} without anything syllabic, as far as I can tell; is
>>>> that difficult for you? Note by the way that this is in contrast to a =
number
>>>> of pronunciation difficulties that I still have; my {x} is still quite=
 weak,
>>>> for example, and can be hard to tell from my {k} in a number of positi=
ons in
>>>> words. So somehow it seems like if I can say it, lots of people should=
 be
>>>> able to? Or something?
>>>>
>>>> I don't really like the sound, both for malgli and nalmalgli reasons, =
of
>>>> {cit-} in general, though. Put differently, {citmle} doesn't sound lik=
e what
>>>> it means.
>>>>
>>>> mu'o mi'e latros
>>>
>>> Hmmm. =A0Your comment makes me a little nervous. =A0"x" has always been=
 an
>>> annoying sound for me but I think I finally have it. =A0Based on the CL=
Ls
>>> description and the fact that somewhere where it talks about lojbanizin=
g
>>> names it suggests "x" as a possible replacement for "h" made me feel pr=
etty
>>> comfortable about it.
>>> But then I'll hear someone say "it's like the 'ch' in the scottish
>>> 'loch'" and think "wait, I pronounce that like 'lock' and when I hear a
>>> scottish person say it it always sounds more like a 'k' to me". =A0Or f=
or
>>> example I read your message about how your "x" sometimes sounds like "k=
" and
>>> that makes me think even moreso "oh no.. my 'x' sounds more like an 'h'
>>> that's kind of flemmy or like I have a fishbone in my throat or
>>> something.... where are these 'k's coming from".
>>> Oh blech. =A0Then I listen to the audio
>>> here:=A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative=A0and re=
ad how
>>> "It is not to be confused with the=A0voiceless uvular fricative". =A0An=
d I can
>>> barely hear the difference. =A0Though if I had to say which one my "x" =
sounds
>>> more similar to it would be the second one since it sounds more "h"y th=
an
>>> the first one.
>>> Blech. =A0Maybe later I'll record myself pronouncing it and lo jbocecmu=
 can
>>> give me some feedback if they have the time?
>>>
>>> mi'e la .cribe.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps
>>> "lojban" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.