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Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:35:21 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQCbdmbKqL95L9PT7WhvExSrDiAhCvAuB0XaJw0bYkGhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, but general relevance: dai-like cmavo
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   We seem to be in agreement here.  Who  wants in "au se'inai"?  *I* do.
> > What's the reason for my want?  Someone else.  Who complains in "oi
> > se'inai"?  I do.  What's the reason for my complaint?  Someone else.
> Hence,
> > "That fall you took hurt me!"  Whereas "oi dai" to me only conveys "I see
> > that YOU hurt".
>
> No, oidai expresses a feeling on the part of the speaker. That feeling
> is one of empathetic pain, and implies that the speaker feels pain on
> behalf of the listener (whether or not the listener actually feels any
> pain).
>
> This is important, because the UI (other than xu) are strangely
> non-declarative. There is a crucial difference between ".ui" and "mi
> gleki". You might be lying about how you feel, so "mi gleki" is simply
> false; ".ui" has no truth value, ever. It cannot be affirmed, obeyed,
> or answered, as it is not semantically declarative, imperative, or
> interrogative. Since I can very readily be mistaken about how you
> feel, saying ".oi" on your behalf makes no sense - it's expressing
> something that I have no way of knowing even exists, without allowing
> you to dispute it. An empathetic feeling, on the other hand, is no
> less real just because the person being empathized with feels
> differently; that's the kind of feeling ".oidai" expresses.
>
>   But I never asserted that "oidai" declares or (as you use later),
"asserts".  I said it CONVEYS that meaning.
  In fact, now that I have just reread the lojban reference grammar, that's
EXACTLY the example they give. (13.10.9) and then goes on to say, "Both
``pei'' and ``dai'' represent exceptions to the normal rule that
attitudinals reflect the speaker's attitude."

  I didn't THINK I was making this up.
          --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr">=A0=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 13, 2=
011 at 12:20 PM, Craig Daniel <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:craig=
bdaniel@gmail.com">craigbdaniel@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Michael Turniansky<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt; =A0 We seem to be in agreement here.=A0 Who=A0 wants in &quot;au se&#3=
9;inai&quot;?=A0 *I* do.<br>
&gt; What&#39;s the reason for my want?=A0 Someone else.=A0 Who complains i=
n &quot;oi<br>
&gt; se&#39;inai&quot;?=A0 I do.=A0 What&#39;s the reason for my complaint?=
=A0 Someone else. Hence,<br>
&gt; &quot;That fall you took hurt me!&quot;=A0 Whereas &quot;oi dai&quot; =
to me only conveys &quot;I see<br>
&gt; that YOU hurt&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>No, oidai expresses a feeling on the part of the speaker. That feelin=
g<br>
is one of empathetic pain, and implies that the speaker feels pain on<br>
behalf of the listener (whether or not the listener actually feels any<br>
pain).<br>
<br>
This is important, because the UI (other than xu) are strangely<br>
non-declarative. There is a crucial difference between &quot;.ui&quot; and =
&quot;mi<br>
gleki&quot;. You might be lying about how you feel, so &quot;mi gleki&quot;=
 is simply<br>
false; &quot;.ui&quot; has no truth value, ever. It cannot be affirmed, obe=
yed,<br>
or answered, as it is not semantically declarative, imperative, or<br>
interrogative. Since I can very readily be mistaken about how you<br>
feel, saying &quot;.oi&quot; on your behalf makes no sense - it&#39;s expre=
ssing<br>
something that I have no way of knowing even exists, without allowing<br>
you to dispute it. An empathetic feeling, on the other hand, is no<br>
less real just because the person being empathized with feels<br>
differently; that&#39;s the kind of feeling &quot;.oidai&quot; expresses.<b=
r><br></blockquote><div>=A0 But I never asserted that &quot;oidai&quot; dec=
lares or (as you use later), &quot;asserts&quot;. =A0I said it CONVEYS that=
 meaning.</div>
<div>=A0 In fact, now that I have just reread the lojban reference grammar,=
 that&#39;s EXACTLY the example they give. (13.10.9) and then goes on to sa=
y,=A0&quot;Both ``pei&#39;&#39; and ``dai&#39;&#39; represent exceptions to=
 the normal rule that attitudinals reflect the speaker&#39;s attitude.&quot=
;<br>
=A0</div><div>=A0 I didn&#39;t THINK I was making this up.</div><div>=A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa</div></div></div>

<p></p>

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