So what should it be? =A0I don't feel pain. =A0I feel sy= mpathy because I observe you feeling pain.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>= wrote:

On = Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> <mturniansky@gmail.com= > wrote:
>> > =A0 We seem to be in agreement here.=A0 Who=A0 wants in "= ;au se'inai"?=A0 *I* do.
>> > What's the reason for my want?=A0 Someone else.=A0 Who co= mplains in "oi
>> > se'inai"?=A0 I do.=A0 What's the reason for my c= omplaint?=A0 Someone else.
>> > Hence,
>> > "That fall you took hurt me!"=A0 Whereas "oi d= ai" to me only conveys "I
>> > see
>> > that YOU hurt".
>>
>> No, oidai expresses a feeling on the part of the speaker. That fee= ling
>> is one of empathetic pain, and implies that the speaker feels pain= on
>> behalf of the listener (whether or not the listener actually feels= any
>> pain).
>>
>> This is important, because the UI (other than xu) are strangely >> non-declarative. There is a crucial difference between ".ui&q= uot; and "mi
>> gleki". You might be lying about how you feel, so "mi gl= eki" is simply
>> false; ".ui" has no truth value, ever. It cannot be affi= rmed, obeyed,
>> or answered, as it is not semantically declarative, imperative, or=
>> interrogative. Since I can very readily be mistaken about how you<= br> >> feel, saying ".oi" on your behalf makes no sense - it= 9;s expressing
>> something that I have no way of knowing even exists, without allow= ing
>> you to dispute it. An empathetic feeling, on the other hand, is no=
>> less real just because the person being empathized with feels
>> differently; that's the kind of feeling ".oidai" exp= resses.
>>
> =A0 But I never asserted that "oidai" declares or (as you us= e later),
> "asserts". =A0I said it CONVEYS that meaning.
> =A0 In fact, now that I have just reread the lojban reference grammar,= that's
> EXACTLY the example they give. (13.10.9) and then goes on to say,=A0&q= uot;Both
> ``pei'' and ``dai'' represent exceptions to the normal= rule that
> attitudinals reflect the speaker's attitude."
>
> =A0 I didn't THINK I was making this up.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

Hm, so it does.

The ma'oste gives the following: "dai =A0UI5 =A0attitudinal modifi= er:
marks empathetic use of preceding attitudinal; shows another's
feelings"

If this were a simple conflict between the Book and the ma'oste (as
with the syntax of "vo'a"), I'd say the Book ought to win= , but the
book's example here is actually not self-consistent interpreted your way - it glosses ".oiro'odai" as "[pain!] [physical] [em= pathy]", which
implies that the speaker is empathizing with the listener's pain
rather than merely referring to it, and proceeds to translate it more
idomatically as "Ouch! That must've hurt!" (which pe'i im= plies the
speaker feels something too, even though they're not physically
injured) right before it tells you it's not about the speaker's
attitude. It proceeds thence to example 13.10.10, empathizing with a
non-living object, which can *only* be about the speaker's empathetic emotions and has nothing to do with an actual belief in the ship's
emotions, before giving the sentence you quoted. The fact that
(barring syntactically-dubious experimental COI) there's no way to
specify who you're empathizing with, only to describe an empathetic
feeling, seems to bolster this understanding as well, and of course
example 13.10.10 makes it crystal clear the empathy may not be with
anyone present.

I think it's fairest to say that "dai" does reflect the speak= er's
attitude, but is an exception to the normal rule that attitudinals are
*only* about the speaker's feelings. This one is about that, but in a way that has reference to others' feelings as perceived (however
implausible that perception, as in the ship example) by the speaker.

=A0- mi'e .kreig.

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