I can = understand the appeal of your concept of bunches -- if I understand them co= rrectly as being something like subsets of the extensions consisting of mun= danes/atoms (perhaps generalized to something like Bunt's ensemble, derivat= ive of Le=C5=9Bniewski 's mereology, to cover masses). E.g.:
- (1a) Lions are ruining my garden.

- (1b) There exist so= me lions that are ruining my garden.

where (1a) invokes a kind and (= 1b) invokes a bunch or somesuch, and yet both sentences seem to have the sa= me truth conditions or almost the same.

But yesterday as I was reading random online materials (this one - http://amor.cms.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/Talks/GenericitySeattle.ho= .pdf ), I found what I think is a good bunch-resisting, kind-exampl= e:

- (2a) Transistors were invented by Shockley.

One can't get the = same result by referring to any bunch:

- (2b) *There exist some tran= sistors that were invented by Shockley.

Nor does taking the biggest= possible bunch of transistors help:

- (2c) *All transistors were invented by Shockley.

It seems that though transistors as a kind of thing were invented, no m= undane transistor nor any extension, ensemble, or bunch of them was invente= d. In (2a) there does seem to be some sort of "transistor kind" (dare= I say "form") above the mundane, even taking into consideration the possib= le worlds that Montague would have in his model.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:45 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Here we have the advantage of t= aking kinds and the like as bunches (without
> ontological commitment of things called "bunches"): {su'o lo stuci) ha= s
> essentially the same result under either interpretation, a subbun= ch of lo
> stuci. It may, of course, not correspond to the bunc= hes put in as kinds of
> teachers, but it produces a kind of its own. Of course, there re= mains the issue
> of how this bunch talks to all the students, but, a= s I have noted elsewhere, it
> all works out to there being some teac= hers (mundanes) who talk to all the
> students, even if no one teacher does.
>
>
>
>= ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jj= llambias@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.c= om
> Sent: Sun, November 13, 2011 7:10:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] = Lions and levels and the like
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:39 = PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> >
> > What I mean by this (i.e. by "really"): if B hears A= say {su'o ctuca cu
> > tavla ro le tadni}, and B wants to underst= and what A means to say about
> > actual teachers and actual stude= nts, and if {ctuca} and {tadni} do not
> > specify levels, then B has to guess which levels A intends them t= o refer
> > to. If, for example, B guesses that A is talking about= kinds of teacher
> > and about actual students, all B can deduce = about actual teachers and
> > students is that every student was talked to by some teacher.
= >
> You have some hidden assumptions there, for example that there= are
> actual teachers of the kind that talks to every student.
>
> And B can deduce more: that there is some kind of teacher such= that
> every student was talked to by some teacher of that kind.
= >
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this = message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group= , send email to
> lojban+unsubsc= ribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
= >
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribe= d to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.co= m.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.