On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 4:16 PM, John E. Cli= fford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hmmm! =C2=A0Nice case! =C2=A0Of course, some = first transistor must have been invented that all the others copied and imp= roved upon, but that doesn't really dodge your point. =C2=A0At the mome= nt, I don't know what to suggest, except to hope that Lojban still has<= span>=C2=A0a word for kinds. =C2=A0Bunches are, inter alia, Lesniewski'= s wholes (but xorxes doesn't like this kind of objectifying, preferring= plural reference, which works the same way formally). =C2=A0I don't ta= ke 1a to be about kinds, but just about =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some unspecified bunc= h of lions (at least in Lojban, lo cinfo). =C2=A0Kinds don't seem to be= the sort of things that ruin gardens, though their exemplars may. =C2=A0Th= e factual situation, as far as transistors, etc. are concerned, is about ge= nealogy, all transistors descend from something invented by Shockley. =C2= =A0But that is at least as hard to express as types, so I wait a while on i= t.

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 14, 2011, at 2:24 PM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrot= e:

I can understand the ap= peal of your concept of bunches -- if I understand them correctly as being = something like subsets of the extensions consisting of mundanes/atoms (perh= aps generalized to something like Bunt's ensemble, derivative of Le=C5= =9Bniewski 's mereology, to cover masses). =C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g.:

- (1a) Lions are ruining my garden.=C2=A0

- (1b) There exist so= me lions that are ruining my garden.

where (1a) invokes a kind and (= 1b) invokes a bunch or somesuch, and yet both sentences seem to have the sa= me truth conditions or almost the same.

But yesterday as I was reading random online materials (this one - http://amor.cms.hu-be= rlin.de/~h2816i3x/Talks/GenericitySeattle.ho.pdf ), I found what I thin= k is a good bunch-resisting, kind-example:

- (2a) Transistors were invented by Shockley.

One can't get = the same result by referring to any bunch:

- (2b) *There exist some = transistors that were invented by Shockley.

Nor does taking the big= gest possible bunch of transistors help:

- (2c) *All transistors were invented by Shockley.

It seems that though transistors as a kind of thing were invented, no m= undane transistor nor any extension, ensemble, or bunch of them was invente= d.=C2=A0 In (2a) there does seem to be some sort of "transistor kind&q= uot; (dare I say "form") above the mundane, even taking into cons= ideration the possible worlds that Montague would have in his model.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:45 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
= > Here we have the advantage of taking kinds and the like as bunches (wi= thout
> ontological commitment of things called "bunches"): {su'= o lo stuci) has
> essentially the same result under either interpreta= tion, a subbunch of lo
> stuci. =C2=A0It may, of course, not correspo= nd to the bunches put in as kinds of
> teachers, but it produces a kind of its own. =C2=A0Of course, there re= mains the issue
> of how this bunch talks to all the students, but, a= s I have noted elsewhere, it
> all works out to there being some teac= hers (mundanes) who talk to all the
> students, even if no one teacher does.
>
>
>
>= ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
> To: <= a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegr= oups.com
> Sent: Sun, November 13, 2011 7:10:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] = Lions and levels and the like
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:39 = PM, Martin Bays <= mbays@sdf.org> wr= ote:
> >
> > What I mean by this (i.e. by "really"): if= B hears A say {su'o ctuca cu
> > tavla ro le tadni}, and B wa= nts to understand what A means to say about
> > actual teachers an= d actual students, and if {ctuca} and {tadni} do not
> > specify levels, then B has to guess which levels A intends them t= o refer
> > to. If, for example, B guesses that A is talking about= kinds of teacher
> > and about actual students, all B can deduce = about actual teachers and
> > students is that every student was talked to by some teacher.
= >
> You have some hidden assumptions there, for example that there= are
> actual teachers of the kind that talks to every student.
>
> And B can deduce more: that there is some kind of teacher such= that
> every student was talked to by some teacher of that kind.
= >
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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