A so des! Sorry to be so slow.. A mass is a k= ind extended to be closed under "part of", a kind is the intersection of a = mass and an individualizing principle (say "viable organism" for lions from= lion). But the relations are formally the same, the jest of mereolog= y (member/subset -- they fall together). Or, from my on the ground vi= ew, kinds grow upward from individuals to bunches and masses grow downward,= from individuals to physical parts to ultimate atoms, the smallest things = that are still of the sort (atoms, molecules, cells, etc.).
I'm not at a= ll sure what this says about Lojban and {lo} expressions or about levels, c= ome to that. But at least I am, I think finally near the page you all= have been on for awhile.

From:<= /span> maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 14, 2011 6:55:26 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and= levels and the like

Ah, you jarred my memory. Having studied Bunt, I think that I can mak= e some sense of your earlier writings about Le=C5=9Bniewskian sets (L-sets)= and Cantorian or classical sets (C-sets) e.g. http://pc= kipo.blogspot.com/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html I take it = that your "bunches" are basically L-sets as there described then? I a= m not quite sure how L-sets work differently than C-sets, other than they c= an't be nested and {a} =3D a. C-sets clearly handle individuals effic= iently and masses poorly; how do L-sets handle masses and individuals? = ; Or is there a difference?

FWIW, Bunt's "ensembles" which I mentioned are a bit different than you= r L-sets. Ensembles are a set-like structure in which mass is the bas= ic concept, and atomic individuals are derived or secondary. Any non-= empty ensemble may contain or atomic members (essentially a count ensemble)= , or for lack of a better word non-atomic "stuff" (mass ensemble). It= could also contain both atoms and non-atomic stuff. Count and mass e= nsembles may combine in predicate relationships freely as in "The five ring= s were gold". So they seem pretty useful for capturing human language= semantics.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 4:16 PM, John E. Cli= fford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hmmm! Nice case! Of course, some first transistor mus= t have been invented that all the others copied and improved upon, but that= doesn't really dodge your point. At the moment, I don't know what to= suggest, except to hope that Lojban still has a word for kinds.= Bunches are, inter alia, Lesniewski's wholes (but xorxes doesn't lik= e this kind of objectifying, preferring plural reference, which works the s= ame way formally). I don't take 1a to be about kinds, but just about = some unspecified bunch of lions (at least in Lojban, lo cinfo= ). Kinds don't seem to be the sort of things that ruin gardens, thoug= h their exemplars may. The factual situation, as far as transistors, = etc. are concerned, is about genealogy, all transistors descend from someth= ing invented by Shockley. But that is at least as hard to express as = types, so I wait a while on it.

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 14, 2011, at 2:24 PM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:

I can understand the ap= peal of your concept of bunches -- if I understand them correctly as being = something like subsets of the extensions consisting of mundanes/atoms (perh= aps generalized to something like Bunt's ensemble, derivative of Le=C5=9Bni= ewski 's mereology, to cover masses). E.g.:

- (1a) Lions are ruining my garden.

- (1b) There exist so= me lions that are ruining my garden.

where (1a) invokes a kind and (= 1b) invokes a bunch or somesuch, and yet both sentences seem to have the sa= me truth conditions or almost the same.

But yesterday as I was reading random online materials (this one - http://amor.cms.hu-berlin.de/%7Eh2816i3x/Talks/GenericitySeattle.ho.pdf ), I found what I think is a good bunch-resisting, kind-example:<= br>
- (2a) Transistors were invented by Shockley.

One can't get the = same result by referring to any bunch:

- (2b) *There exist some tran= sistors that were invented by Shockley.

Nor does taking the biggest= possible bunch of transistors help:

- (2c) *All transistors were invented by Shockley.

It seems that though transistors as a kind of thing were invented, no m= undane transistor nor any extension, ensemble, or bunch of them was invente= d. In (2a) there does seem to be some sort of "transistor kind" (dare= I say "form") above the mundane, even taking into consideration the possib= le worlds that Montague would have in his model.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:45 AM, John E Clifford <kali9put= ra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Here we have the advantage of t= aking kinds and the like as bunches (without
> ontological commitment of things called "bunches"): {su'o lo stuci) ha= s
> essentially the same result under either interpretation, a subbun= ch of lo
> stuci. It may, of course, not correspond to the bunc= hes put in as kinds of
> teachers, but it produces a kind of its own. Of course, there re= mains the issue
> of how this bunch talks to all the students, but, a= s I have noted elsewhere, it
> all works out to there being some teac= hers (mundanes) who talk to all the
> students, even if no one teacher does.
>
>
>
>= ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, November 13, 2011 7:10:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] = Lions and levels and the like
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:39 = PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> >
> > What I mean by this (i.e. by "really"): if B hears A= say {su'o ctuca cu
> > tavla ro le tadni}, and B wants to underst= and what A means to say about
> > actual teachers and actual stude= nts, and if {ctuca} and {tadni} do not
> > specify levels, then B has to guess which levels A intends them t= o refer
> > to. If, for example, B guesses that A is talking about= kinds of teacher
> > and about actual students, all B can deduce = about actual teachers and
> > students is that every student was talked to by some teacher.
= >
> You have some hidden assumptions there, for example that there= are
> actual teachers of the kind that talks to every student.
>
> And B can deduce more: that there is some kind of teacher such= that
> every student was talked to by some teacher of that kind.
= >
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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