Received: from mail-iy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:42550)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCShZL2BBoESFWK4w@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RQstp-0000l6-Gs; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:44:40 -0800
Received: by iage36 with SMTP id e36sf2593168iag.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:44:23 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to
         :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=vll8JNR8GoFqzn23ebH1OB33Q+Ttmz9uf2SkQVzv040=;
        b=HNYKsyJ1OuRvedFypDbDt3KjeyOawcg09F10MeBdQ3ob7ruwapCZHgoeo92b+V27tG
         FqY2b9IF0ZUC8YoWy2w2d4WMamb3SxSudRoXfxRyD+qcH9d4aB43cM91toPDoETsuIlI
         gg/F7MPlTmUq2Bm9Yld3jwcgq8GyS31mmFZZY=
Received: by 10.50.149.193 with SMTP id uc1mr5323941igb.17.1321501330027;
        Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:42:10 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.100.74.17 with SMTP id w17ls581436ana.1.gmail; Wed, 16 Nov
 2011 19:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.101.197.23 with SMTP id z23mr7132346anp.48.1321501328531;
        Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.101.197.23 with SMTP id z23mr7132345anp.48.1321501328514;
        Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nm9-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm9-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com. [66.94.237.249])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id m17si172370ybe.0.2011.11.16.19.42.08;
        Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.249 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.249;
Received: from [66.94.237.194] by nm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2011 03:42:07 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.117] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2011 03:42:07 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1022.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2011 03:42:07 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 860646.54391.bm@omp1022.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 21956 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Nov 2011 03:42:07 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: IDKherkVM1mKtjeu3qrr6OJWfk96m0NLBReK9kJ5Xh7j1YS
 K9rY1dqoLCJ69YXZS8LRSNePUY2KRkQJaZBOfY7UxDMbBFG4mg6XKWb5PvZM
 rjvkVxooXcpUiYs6vXhAFqWsFO9r.F_rX8y9y69_FQux5Udhnoi94Jh7E5WD
 qYHeesMPzu6ujHpCEq1mXe8i6jnJq9uIR_Vmb1UvH6bcRc4waRrzIFajDjcN
 .OTNgjHijp1s2nQ8j5JMwx0xBuZNkYm6s8sTgLwvDN98r4Wivwlr1DGx1.P5
 YAK7BXDHg7vqhIu3PvCrBHmfsqbB_b2Lq116aw7jCNJAh86NE5gSfENoDRTw
 OfOgWO4HYmxd6WUTmYeGHeZa9CulqNymYlijIidGm0BtbfUwCLBr7URZrhm5
 cCaDESob7GbxnnceOS2jonSTlHyIKW8Cd0uoBJmicYksTWm_NecGVdeojyfF
 fVLS_yxw5SjG6z5hx_5klq7eFGCFv7R_S9JZ.uD1F6DdTfmCNCRYzIWVHXs7
 gLpXWXedShAEiq02Kxs.024j6wjisM0VC3ga7i0c9VHz94XFiSl0-
Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:42:07 PST
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/588 YahooMailWebService/0.8.115.325013
References: <BC4158B4-9A03-4FA3-B5FE-1E0065FD5243@yahoo.com> <20111112173901.GC2702@gonzales> <CAO7tK2f746BHY3t=abooFu1W+nCD2NVkzk+1e8L0awOP6=N0Bg@mail.gmail.com> <1321289156.24832.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <CAOYwWb3-T2jyt-CsmO7U6ZTcrNx=Dux4n=vXyK1nBcPDk6MnoQ@mail.gmail.com> <8A2121A2-7549-4123-8557-EEE300254097@yahoo.com> <4EC4374C.7050704@lojban.org>
Message-ID: <1321501327.39776.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:42:07 -0800 (PST)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <4EC4374C.7050704@lojban.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.249
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

Yes, the factual situation is a little foggy with most inventions/discoveries -- 
there are always folks before the glory guy.  But the overall logic of the 
situation for the present context seems pretty clear, even if we don't quite 
know what goes where in the early part of the process (and probably never 
will).  In a word, we should let some ugly facts muck up a good theory.



----- Original Message ----
From: Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 16, 2011 4:21:00 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like

John E. Clifford wrote:
> Hmmm!  Nice case!  Of course, some first transistor must have been invented 
>that all the others copied and improved upon, but that doesn't really dodge your 
>point.  At the moment, I don't know what to suggest, except to hope that Lojban 
>still has a word for kinds.  Bunches are, inter alia, Lesniewski's wholes (but 
>xorxes doesn't like this kind of objectifying, preferring plural reference, 
>which works the same way formally).  I don't take 1a to be about kinds, but just 
>about     some unspecified bunch of lions (at least in Lojban, lo cinfo).  Kinds 
>don't seem to be the sort of things that ruin gardens, though their exemplars 
>may.  The factual situation, as far as transistors, etc. are concerned, is about 
>genealogy, all transistors descend from something invented by Shockley.  But 
>that is at least as hard to express as types, so I wait a while on it.

Actually, I just read something on this a couple days ago.

There was a patent issued in Canada for a field-effect transistor in 1925, but 
it isn't clear if any were built.  A similar patent was issued in Germany in 
1934.  Neither has much to do with the Shockley transistor other than name and 
general semiconductor nature.  Bardeen and Brattain then invented the germanium 
transistor in 1947, but Shockley ended up getting a share of the credit.  There 
was an independent invention in France in 1948.  Texas Instruments produced the 
first silicon transistor in 1954, and MOS-FETs came even later, and I think they 
are more like the 1925 idea than like the 1947 one.  It would be difficult to 
call any of the reinventions prior to 1948 as being "family tree descendants". 
Those afterwards would probably give some ancestral credit to Shockley's group, 
but that might be a legal fiction due to patent law rather than truly being 
genealogical.

The same probably goes for the brothers' Wright and the airplane.  Many others 
were independently inventing them when the Wrights first flew, and it is hard to 
argue that airplanes are necessarily more descended from Wright's plane than any 
of those others.

How to express these distinctions in Lojban is beyond anything I would attempt 
to argue, especially post xorlo.

lojbab

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.