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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
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I forgot to reply to this part:


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:30 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

>  The only Lojbanic thing I see in all of this at the moment is that that
> maximal bunch ought to be given a separate gadri.
>
>
As a longtime lurker on this list, I would just assume personally avoid
espousing any such specific proposal for the time being :-)


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> * Monday, 2011-11-14 at 15:24 -0500 - maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com>:
>
> > But yesterday as I was reading random online materials (this one -
> > http://amor.cms.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/Talks/GenericitySeattle.ho.pdf), I
> > found what I think is a good bunch-resisting, kind-example:
> >
> > - (2a) Transistors were invented by Shockley.
>
> I don't think we should feel obliged to treat as a jbokind (whatever
> they end up being) everything for which English uses a bare plural.
>
> In this case, surely what Shockley invented was the idea (si'o) of
> a transistor.
>
> Martin
>

So, would you have us write {lo si'o [za'e] grezunca'a cu se finti la
.caklis.}?

I believe that pretty much {lo si'o broda} = {lo sidbo be lo broda}, where
lo broda is again is a reference to a kind with clearly _no_
actuals/mundanes/instances, either needed or wanted.  Would you rewrite {lo
broda cu sidbo} as {lo si'o broda cu sidbo}?

The idea that both you and John invoke is to grammaticize Lojban's kind
references (and John would probabIy like to grammaticize generics as
well).  In all honesty, I agree we don't have to follow English, and it's
worth considering the idea theoretically.  It might actually be
beneficial*, but aside from the arguable redundancy of kind-marking, I
don't believe that anyone has cataloged the large number of bridi places
with respect to kinds and generics; each place may well admit one, the
other, or both.  Until that happens we really don't know how big of a
change this would entail -- or at least _I_ don't as a not-so-frequent user.

*For example clearing up the specific/nonspecific distinction in "mi sisku
lo broda" would be valuable and should be mandatory -- assuming that both
readings are allowed, as I believe they are.

-Mike

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I forgot to reply to this part:<br><br><br>On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:30 AM,=
 John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.c=
om">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204=
, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-=
size: 12pt;">=A0The only Lojbanic thing I see in all of this at the moment =
is that that maximal bunch
 ought to be given a separate gadri.<br><br></div></div></blockquote><br>As=
 a longtime lurker on this list, I would just assume personally avoid espou=
sing any such specific proposal for the time being :-)<br><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Martin Bays <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1p=
x solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
* Monday, 2011-11-14 at 15:24 -0500 - maikxlx &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx=
@gmail.com">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; But yesterday as I was reading random online materials (this one -<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://amor.cms.hu-berlin.de/%7Eh2816i3x/Talks/GenericitySe=
attle.ho.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://amor.cms.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/Talk=
s/GenericitySeattle.ho.pdf</a> ), I<br>
&gt; found what I think is a good bunch-resisting, kind-example:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - (2a) Transistors were invented by Shockley.<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t think we should feel obliged to treat as a jbokind (whate=
ver<br>
they end up being) everything for which English uses a bare plural.<br>
<br>
In this case, surely what Shockley invented was the idea (si&#39;o) of<br>
a transistor.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Martin<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>So, would you have us write {lo si&#39;o [za&=
#39;e] grezunca&#39;a cu se finti la .caklis.}?<br><br>I believe that prett=
y much {lo si&#39;o broda} =3D {lo sidbo be lo broda}, where lo broda is ag=
ain is a reference to a kind with clearly _no_ actuals/mundanes/instances, =
either needed or wanted.=A0 Would you rewrite {lo broda cu sidbo} as {lo si=
&#39;o broda cu sidbo}?<br>
<br>The idea that both you and John invoke is to grammaticize Lojban&#39;s =
kind references (and John would probabIy like to grammaticize generics as w=
ell).=A0 In all honesty, I agree we don&#39;t have to follow English, and i=
t&#39;s worth considering the idea theoretically.=A0 It might actually be b=
eneficial*, but aside from the arguable redundancy of kind-marking, I don&#=
39;t believe that anyone has cataloged the large number of bridi places wit=
h respect to kinds and generics; each place may well admit one, the other, =
or both.=A0 Until that happens we really don&#39;t know how big of a change=
 this would entail -- or at least _I_ don&#39;t as a not-so-frequent user.<=
br>
<br>*For example clearing up the specific/nonspecific distinction in &quot;=
mi sisku lo broda&quot; would be valuable and should be mandatory -- assumi=
ng that both readings are allowed, as I believe they are.<br><br>-Mike<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<p></p>

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