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On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:37 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

> I haven't quite figured out yet how C-sets and L-sets can be combined in
> one theory, aside from just running both, with different symbols, say.  But
> then I don't see what the interaction between them would be.  I'll work on
> this.
>

Well Bunt claims to combine them in his theory, has proved consistency and
equivalency with Zermelo-Fraenkel -- all this with natural language
semantics aforethought. Unfortunately I don't have any good links.  I have
been studying Bunt's stuff off scraps I find on the Internet.  I suggest
the link on Google Books I gave above; it explains ensembles pretty well
even if there are pages missing.  I will try to write a short sketch myself
on ensembles in the near future when I have time, but the literature out
there is better than what I can write.


> I don't find either "Dogs are mammals" or "Man walked on the Moon" in any
> way odd.
>

As I tried to convey in my reply to Pierre Abbat, it's just a little odd
that that in the former case we have a necessary universal situation and in
the latter case we have a marginal existential situation, and yet in Lojban
both have (or are allowed to have) exactly the same logical form.  Maybe
not odd, but curious at least.

But I do worry about introducing intensions into all this.  To be sure,
> looking for a unicorn clearly takes out of the present domain of discourse
> to another and that move may be inherently intensional, the -- by fiat, to
> be sure -- the intensional part falls into {tu'a} and the like, not into
> the {lo}expression.  In short, kinds -- if that is what is involved here
> and in cases like extinction or creation -- seem to me to be exactly about
> extensions, just maybe not this extesnsion.
>

{tu'a} is a bit old school isn't it?  We are already introducing an
intension whenever {lo} refers to a kind, as in {lo grezunca'a cu se finti
la .caklis.} or {lo ciprdodo cu jutmro} or {ko'a sisku lo pavyseljirna}.

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:37 PM, John E=
 Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kal=
i9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-=
size: 12pt;">
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;">I haven&#39;t quite figured out yet how C-sets and L-sets c=
an be combined in one theory, aside from just running both, with different =
symbols, say.=A0 But then I don&#39;t see what the interaction between them=
 would be.=A0 I&#39;ll work on this.<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Well Bunt claims to combine t=
hem in his theory, has proved consistency and equivalency with Zermelo-Frae=
nkel -- all this with natural language semantics aforethought. Unfortunatel=
y I don&#39;t have any good links.=A0 I have been studying Bunt&#39;s stuff=
 off scraps I find on the Internet.=A0 I suggest the link on Google Books I=
 gave above; it explains ensembles pretty well even if there are pages miss=
ing.=A0 I will try to write a short sketch myself on ensembles in the near =
future when I have time, but the literature out there is better than what I=
 can write.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12=
pt;">
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;"></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px=
 solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,seri=
f; font-size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,ti=
mes,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
I don&#39;t find either &quot;Dogs are mammals&quot; or &quot;Man walked on=
 the Moon&quot; in any way odd.=A0 </div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br>As I tried to convey in my reply to Pierre Abbat, it&#39;s just a lit=
tle odd that that in the former case we have a necessary universal situatio=
n and in the latter case we have a marginal existential situation, and yet =
in Lojban both have (or are allowed to have) exactly  the same logical form=
.=A0 Maybe not odd, but curious at least.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.=
8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 1=
2pt;">
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;">But I do worry about introducing intensions into all this.=
=A0 To be sure, looking for a unicorn clearly takes out of the present doma=
in of discourse to another and that move may be inherently intensional, the=
 -- by fiat, to be sure -- the intensional part falls into {tu&#39;a} and t=
he like, not into the {lo}expression.=A0 In short, kinds -- if that is what=
 is involved here and in cases like extinction or creation -- seem to me to=
 be exactly about extensions, just maybe not this extesnsion.<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=A0<br>{tu&#39;a} is a bit old sc=
hool isn&#39;t it?=A0 We are already introducing an intension whenever {lo}=
 refers to a kind, as in {lo grezunca&#39;a cu se finti la .caklis.} or {lo=
 ciprdodo cu jutmro} or {ko&#39;a sisku lo pavyseljirna}. <br>
<br><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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