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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
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I don't see kinds as being intensional, just as those maximal bunches again=
.  {tu'a} may be old school but it does it's job and if it ain't broke, don=
't fix it.  {ko'a sisku lo pavyseljirna} guarantees that there are unicorns=
 in the current universe of discourse, and immediately raises the question =
of which one(s) you are seeking, which poses problems, given the non divers=
ity of the nonexistent.  The other two cases you mention don't pose that pr=
oblem but rather issues about the meaning of {finti} and {jutmro}, both fai=
rly easily resolved.

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 17, 2011, at 12:50 AM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:37 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> I haven't quite figured out yet how C-sets and L-sets can be combined in =
one theory, aside from just running both, with different symbols, say.  But=
 then I don't see what the interaction between them would be.  I'll work on=
 this.
>=20
> Well Bunt claims to combine them in his theory, has proved consistency an=
d equivalency with Zermelo-Fraenkel -- all this with natural language seman=
tics aforethought. Unfortunately I don't have any good links.  I have been =
studying Bunt's stuff off scraps I find on the Internet.  I suggest the lin=
k on Google Books I gave above; it explains ensembles pretty well even if t=
here are pages missing.  I will try to write a short sketch myself on ensem=
bles in the near future when I have time, but the literature out there is b=
etter than what I can write.
> =20
> I don't find either "Dogs are mammals" or "Man walked on the Moon" in any=
 way odd.=20
>=20
> As I tried to convey in my reply to Pierre Abbat, it's just a little odd =
that that in the former case we have a necessary universal situation and in=
 the latter case we have a marginal existential situation, and yet in Lojba=
n both have (or are allowed to have) exactly the same logical form.  Maybe =
not odd, but curious at least.
>=20
> But I do worry about introducing intensions into all this.  To be sure, l=
ooking for a unicorn clearly takes out of the present domain of discourse t=
o another and that move may be inherently intensional, the -- by fiat, to b=
e sure -- the intensional part falls into {tu'a} and the like, not into the=
 {lo}expression.  In short, kinds -- if that is what is involved here and i=
n cases like extinction or creation -- seem to me to be exactly about exten=
sions, just maybe not this extesnsion.
> =20
> {tu'a} is a bit old school isn't it?  We are already introducing an inten=
sion whenever {lo} refers to a kind, as in {lo grezunca'a cu se finti la .c=
aklis.} or {lo ciprdodo cu jutmro} or {ko'a sisku lo pavyseljirna}.=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb=
an?hl=3Den.

--=20
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<html><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>I don't see kinds as being intensional=
, just as those maximal bunches again. &nbsp;{tu'a} may be old school but i=
t does it's job and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. &nbsp;{ko'a sisku lo p=
avyseljirna} guarantees that there are unicorns in the current universe of =
discourse, and immediately raises the question of which one<span class=3D"A=
pple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.2=
96875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -web=
kit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">(s) you are se=
eking, which poses problems, given the non diversity of the nonexistent. &n=
bsp;The other two cases you mention don't pose that problem but rather issu=
es about the meaning of {finti} and {jutmro}, both fairly easily resolved.<=
/span></div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Nov 17, 2011, at 12=
:50 AM, maikxlx &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com">maikxlx@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:37 PM, John E Clif=
ford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com"><a href=
=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a></a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-=
size: 12pt;">
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;">I haven't quite figured out yet how C-sets and L-sets can b=
e combined in one theory, aside from just running both, with different symb=
ols, say.&nbsp; But then I don't see what the interaction between them woul=
d be.&nbsp; I'll work on this.<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Well Bunt claims to combine t=
hem in his theory, has proved consistency and equivalency with Zermelo-Frae=
nkel -- all this with natural language semantics aforethought. Unfortunatel=
y I don't have any good links.&nbsp; I have been studying Bunt's stuff off =
scraps I find on the Internet.&nbsp; I suggest the link on Google Books I g=
ave above; it explains ensembles pretty well even if there are pages missin=
g.&nbsp; I will try to write a short sketch myself on ensembles in the near=
 future when I have time, but the literature out there is better than what =
I can write.<br>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div>=
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;">
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;"></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px=
 solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,seri=
f; font-size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,ti=
mes,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
I don't find either "Dogs are mammals" or "Man walked on the Moon" in any w=
ay odd.&nbsp; </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>As I tried to c=
onvey in my reply to Pierre Abbat, it's just a little odd that that in the =
former case we have a necessary universal situation and in the latter case =
we have a marginal existential situation, and yet in Lojban both have (or a=
re allowed to have) exactly  the same logical form.&nbsp; Maybe not odd, bu=
t curious at least.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.=
8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 1=
2pt;">
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;">But I do worry about introducing intensions into all this.&=
nbsp; To be sure, looking for a unicorn clearly takes out of the present do=
main of discourse to another and that move may be inherently intensional, t=
he -- by fiat, to be sure -- the intensional part falls into {tu'a} and the=
 like, not into the {lo}expression.&nbsp; In short, kinds -- if that is wha=
t is involved here and in cases like extinction or creation -- seem to me t=
o be exactly about extensions, just maybe not this extesnsion.<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>&nbsp;<br>{tu'a} is a bit old sch=
ool isn't it?&nbsp; We are already introducing an intension whenever {lo} r=
efers to a kind, as in {lo grezunca'a cu se finti la .caklis.} or {lo ciprd=
odo cu jutmro} or {ko'a sisku lo pavyseljirna}. <br>
<br><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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