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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:15:44 -0800
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana
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This is really interesting stuff!  Can you make sure it appears on
some appropriate BPFK page?

I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm inclined to agree
with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in the gismu setion
please.  How do you fix ganse when you ignore the gi'uste?

-Robin

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 07:17:55PM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> In English we have:
>=20
> look - see
> listen - hear
> touch - feel
> sniff - smell
> taste - taste
>=20
> where the second word in each pair describes an experience while the
> first one describes an action one takes in order to have that
> experience. ("taste" can work both ways, action "I tasted the soup to
> see whether it needed more salt", or experience "I tasted something
> funny in the soup". "smell" and "feel" too can work both ways.)
>=20
> Lojban doesn't have gismu for most of those:
>=20
> catlu - viska
> ----- - tirna
> pencu - -----
> ----- - sumne
> ----- - -----
>=20
> My understanding is that "zgana" and "ganse" were meant to be the
> general words for each column, so we could have:
>=20
> catlu - viska
> kerzga - tirna
> pencu - pilga'e
> zbizga - sumne
> tacyzga - tacyga'e
>=20
> Or in fully regular form:
>=20
> kalzga - kalga'e
> kerzga - kerga'e
> pilzga - pilga'e
> zbizga - zbiga'e
> tacyzga - tacyga'e
>=20
> There are however two problems with all of this.
>=20
> One problem is that all the words used to define "zgana" in English in
> the gi'uste are used almost exclusively with sight, and as Pierre
> pointed out they seem to mean something more like a prolonged
> intentional viska than just directing some sense in order to perceive.
> I believe this is just a case of bad gloss words, since English has no
> convenient word for the intended concept. It is clear that despite the
> gloss words, "zgana" is not restricted to sight, because it has a
> place for the means of sensing.
>=20
> The other problem is the property in x2 of ganse. I think gismu that
> have a property argument and no argument for the thing with the
> property are just wrong. Fortunately there are not many of them. My
> policy is to just ignore the gi'uste about this.
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>=20
> --=20
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>=20
>=20

--=20
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