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[66.94.237.95]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 4si1262061ybf.2.2011.11.18.10.16.48; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.95 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.95; Received: from [66.94.237.192] by nm30.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2011 18:16:48 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.118] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2011 18:16:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2011 18:16:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 210654.97572.bm@omp1023.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 17474 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Nov 2011 18:16:48 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: oEHSSycVM1nYjQVPiMJHh4Pnxdh4JqbrCSqW.4yVYiUtYkw Pe7NsZLT1nVLR008.RWzhJt3WxnnhogLDGjw0IFMQHt_vbsu.DbFHJGOQRWx w1pWlMNMWRq6O1M2aS19_GE6V3I97A6AIxzBB4GmTa4K1fzDuJ.mf_aR02SW cd2Pqe1qIiOgFZCiWf6strXu1T2aMYE3eCrbhD_TrvsL7uhK1CoikH.5t0jt 0M7gtHT_eJlm6I6PLoYcLTepQC3QXG0ApXNCRyxko06vyKimRU_zwsVI4ekS 9PaZhBtVwdoOpFN7aMul5QhdJvaRvSDDj6QmPaW780Rp9BImd3a6a.PqlPNV CazFi5hibB8Xdw6pjjJNFYyEabcgc3UXmZqLKhBYGJXnEDq02dc1rf.oPQQN 60HiTjcGLtiXXXxVIy_FxOHiWhQ7UZiob6IgxKHH0SLMoDjrbFtY8FKu.CXW 4YN8fbvPxq.PDI8DssT90ODI6Po7AFGd5Co.fTZj8aNd7DvvqPowWM2V4gCi JZOYZDlDidsWcrWsjR1K1A_yja80AN_4WztKyBho- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:16:47 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/589 YahooMailWebService/0.8.115.325013 References: <1321501066.64722.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1321633769.30584.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321640207.88557.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:16:47 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.95 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-58403075-1321640207=:88557" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --0-58403075-1321640207=:88557 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Not really, but it can be massaged to do the work. The ideal would be "x1 is necessary under condition/compulsion x2" ________________________________ From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, November 18, 2011 11:51:35 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:39 PM, maikxlx wrote: On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:29 AM, John E Clifford wrote: >> JCB had at least one course in Logic but in a school that did not favor modal >> logic at all. I don't know how well he did in even that one (Lojbab does not >> improve the logic input much). But in 56 years, the efforts to get necessity >> operators in have come to naught -- though eventually we got something like a >> necessity predicate, >> >Is there a brivla for logical or modal necessity? > Does nibli meet your requirements? --gejyspa >If I may confess something, I have been studying Lojban on and off for >years, and every time I get into a learning groove I encounter some >facet of the language that strikes me as so bizarre or absurd that it >stops me in my tracks. The lack of a necessity operator and the >questionable status of {ka'e} make the current situation no exception. > >I had absolutely no intention of suggesting reforms or additions >because although nearly aspect of the language screams for them, the >fact of the matter is that reform is not in the cards and the >language's foundation is pretty much set in stone. However here I >think that I will simply use {ne'e} when I need it, and possibly >{ci'a} too until I convince myself that {ka'e} does what xorxes claims >it does. I understand there is an experimental cmavo process, but I >am going to short-circuit it. Waiting 56 years for "necessarily" is >outrageous. > > >mu'o mi'e .maik. > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0-58403075-1321640207=:88557 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not really, but it can be massaged to do the work.  = The ideal would be "x1 is necessary under condition/compulsion x2"


From: Michael Turniansky <mturn= iansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 18, 2011 11:51:35 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like



On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:39 PM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:29 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:> JCB had at least one course in Logic but in a school that did not fav= or modal
> logic at all.  I don't know how well he did in even that one (Loj= bab does not
> improve the logic input much).  But in 56 years, = the efforts to get necessity
> operators in have come to naught -- th= ough eventually we got something like a
> necessity predicate,
>
Is there a brivla for logical or= modal necessity?
 
  Does nibli meet your requirements?
           &nbs= p;  --gejyspa
 

If I may confess something, I ha= ve been studying Lojban on and off for
years, and every time I get into = a learning groove I encounter some
facet of the language that strikes me as so bizarre or absurd that it
st= ops me in my tracks.  The lack of a necessity operator and the
ques= tionable status of {ka'e} make the current situation no exception.

I had absolutely no intention of suggesting reforms or additions
because= although nearly aspect of the language screams for them, the
fact of th= e matter is that reform is not in the cards and the
language's foundatio= n is pretty much set in stone.  However here I
think that I will simply use {ne'e} when I need it, and possibly
{ci'a} = too until I convince myself that {ka'e} does what xorxes claims
it does.=  I understand there is an experimental cmavo process, but I
am going to short-circuit it.  Waiting 56 years for "necessarily" isoutrageous.

mu'o mi'e .maik.

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